D Howmany standing orders have we made? I hope it will not be faid that all our ftanding orders are ufelefs, because we may depart from them, or alter them when we have a mind. If this Refolution be agreed to, it is certainly to be understood in the fame fenfe as all our itanding orders are; it is never to be departed from but in cafes of the utmost neceffity, people's carrying their money out of this nation. There are but few countries where there is any great credit either publick or private, and in all those where either the one or the other abounds, the Intereft of money is rather lower than it A is in this country; fo that if the Interest of money in this nation were run down a good deal lower than it is, we should be put upon a par with fome of our neighbours, and when people faw that our publick faith was in every circumstance exactly obferved, they would be fo fond of continuing their money in this country, that they would accept of a lower Interest here than they could have in other countries, especially in those where the fecurity has always been very much fufpected. The noble Lord who spoke lait seems to mistake the Refolution proc pofed. The applying of the Sinking-fund towards redeeming taxes is the fame, with applying it towards reducing the publick debts; for as our most grievous taxes are pledged to the creditors of the publick, thofe debts for which they are pledged must be paid off before the taxes can be redeemed: fo that the Refolution moved for is fomething more strong than if it had been in general words, that the Sinking-fund ought always to be applied towards the reducing of the publick debts; for thefe general words plainly appear to be included in the Refolution, and farther, that it ought first to be applied towards the paying off thofe debts for which the taxes moft prejudicial to our trade and manufactures,are mortgag'd, for till thofe debts are paid off, we cannot abolish those taxes, but the debts being once paid off, and thofe taxes thereby redeemed, it will then, and not till then, be in the power of Parliament to confider whether or no the tax ought to be abolish'd. The refolution therefore, as moved for, is a moft proper refolution, and can't be put in better or stronger terms than the Lord who made the motion has put it. Such a refolution is, my Lords, become abfolutely neceffary, it is thewing to the other house what is the opinion of this; it is fhewing to the whole nation, that the finking Fund is for the future to be deemed facred, it is not ty ng up this houle to any thing but what we ought to H be tied up to. Tho' a private man be abfolute maiter of his own affairs, yet every private man lays down to himself fome general rules, from which he never departs without fome very urgent neceffity. In this Houfe we do the fame : (Supplement to Vol. III.) E F E-1 of Sgh.) My Lords, I am very well convinced that the SinkingFund ought never to be applied to any thing but that for which it was established, and for which it was originally intended; and I hope, that your Lordships are not only now, but always will be of the fame opinion; I hope, that that facred Fund will never for the future be applied to any ufe but that of discharging the publick debts, except in cafes of the utmoft Extremity. This is my way of thinking, yet I cannot agree to our coming to fuch a refolution as the noble Lord has been pleased to propofe. Surely we do not mean, we cannot pretend to tie up the hands of the Legiflature fo, as that they must never touch that Fund, even in the times of greateft danger and neceffity. If there thould arife a wicked and unnatural Rebellion in the country; if the nation should be invaded, and 30 or 40000 foreign troops landed in our Dominions, are we to tie ourselves up, fo that the Sinking-Fund is not even` in fuch a cafe to be touched? Many other cafes may happen, in which it might be more for the benefit of the nation to apply a part of that fund to fome other ufe, than to apply the whole to the payment of the publick debts.- -We do not know what inconveniences may be occafioned by our having fuch a Refolution entered upon the Journals of our House: There is one terrible confequence which now occurs to me, and which (in my opinion) may very probably arise from our coming to fuch a Refolution. It may very naturally be the cause of a difference between the two Houfes of Parliament, which would be of the most dangerous confequence to our conftitution. The other houfe may look upon it as a directing of them in what they are to do, with respect to the application of that Fund: Or, if the other House thould not take it amifs, yet, if they fhould upon any future Emergency, which they thought preffing, apply a part of that fund otherwife than to the payment of the national Debt, your Lordships might perhaps think yourselves in hencer G and un y fuch a Refolution, fo as not to agree with them in fuch application: This would naturally raife a conteft between the two Houses which would put a full ftop to all publick bufinefs of the nation; and who can tell the confequence of fuch a Conteft, or how long it might laft? This, my Lords, is one inconvenience which immediately oc- A curred to me, and other Lords may, I believe, foresee a great many more. As that Fund is in its own nature facred to difcharging the Debts of the nation, I hope that without coming to fuch a Refolution, your Lordships will never agree to the applying of it in any other Way except in cafes of the greatest neceffity. Such a refolution I must therefore think quite unneceflary, and as I B think it may be attended with dangerous confequences, I cannot agree to it. L-d Bft.] My Lords, the noble Ld who spoke last has made me think of an amendment to the refolution I propofed ; and as I am always fond of having that noble Lord's Approbation, I shall, therefore, propofe that the Refolution may be to this effect: That it is the Opinion of this Henfe, that the Sinking-fund ought for the future to be ap plied, in time of peace and publiek tranquillity, to the redeeming of those Taxes which are most prejudicial to the Trade, moft burthenfome on the Manufactures, and most oppreffive upon the Poor of this nation. C L--d Sgh.] Befides the cafe of an In- D vafion or Rebellion, there are many other cafes which may happen, and I believe I gave feveral other reafons for my being againft coming to the refolution propofed; therefore, tho' I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for the honour he does me, yet I cannot agree to the refolution even as now amended. The Ms of Tle, the E---1 of Wea, and the E--- of S------d spoke alfo in favour of this refolution: However, at laft, upon putting the question it was carried in the negative without any divifion. June 1. The Houfe of Lords went upon the Examination of the Directors of the S. Sea Company. The prefent Directors of that Company were firit called in and examined; after them the late Infpectors of the Company's accounts, and laftly the former fet of Directors were examined. Then L--d B----- ft moved for this Refolution, viz. That it appeared to that Houfe, that on the 5th of December, 1729, the general Court of the South Sea Company then held, refolved, That the then present Directors should be the Trfees for the Company, with relation to the produce of the forfeited Eftates of the Directors and others in the year 1720, vefted in the Company by an Act of the 7th of King George I. and that the then Trustees fhould furrender, and deliver over to the faid Directors, the faid produce, and all the bocks of accounts, papers, and writings relating thereto; in purfnance of the Aa, passed in the then laft Seffion of Parlia ment: And that that was the only order or direction of any general Court of the faid Company relating to the difpofal of the produce of the faid eftates. Upon this the E--1 of I---ay ftood up and faid, That he would not oppofe the motion in general, but he thought they could not pofitively affirm, that that was the only order or direction of any general Court relating to the difpofal of that money; and therefore he would propofe an amendment to the latter part of the noble Lord's motion, which was, that it should run thus: And that it did not appear to them that there was any other order or direction of any general Court of the faid Company relating to the difpofal of the faid Eftates. Which Amendment was approved of by L--d B----ft, and then his motion, thus amended, was agreed to by the Houfe without any oppofition. Then the E--1 of W----ea moved for the House to refolve, That the difpofing of the forfeited eftates of those who were the Directors of the South-Sea Company in the Year 1720, without any order or direction of a general Court for that purpose, was contrary to Law. Adding that he hoped he had no occafion to fay much in fupport of this motion, becaufe the words of the Act of Parliament were fo plain and exprefs, that it was a certain confequence of the Refolution they had juft then come to. The Lord Chancellor offering to put the queftion upon this motion, the D---ke of Dre ftood up, and fpoke to this effect:---I cannot, my Lords, agree to this motion, because I think it is anticipa ting the judgment of this House in an atfair which may perhaps come before us as a Court of Judicature. 'Tis true, there does not appear to us to have been any other E order or direction of any general Court of that Company for the difpofal of thofe forfeited eftates, except that which is mentioned in our former refolution; but ftill there may be other orders: and granting that there never was any other order, yet we ought not I think to pafs judgment even upon that order, without having all proper parties before us, and the cafe fully debated and confidered. As the refolution propofed is a fort of decree or determination as to a point in which private men are certainly concerned, we ought not to pafs it till the parties concerned are properly before us, and are fully heard as to what they may have to fay againft it, for which reafon I cannot agree to the refolution proposed. F G The B--p of B- and another B---p fpoke next against this refolution, and the Bp of Br particularly took notice, that he could not agree to the refolution, becaufe he thought it would be in fomę manner a giving of directions to the Courts below, how they were to determine, în cafe that affair fhould ever come before them. L-d C.] My Lords, the words of the Act of Parliament are fo plain and ex press prefs and the Resolution moved for by the noble Lord is fo exactly agreeable to those words, that I am really furprized to hear any Lord fignify the leaft fcruple as to agreeing with the Motion. The words of is a question which I shall not pretend now to determine; I fhall not fo much as offer any arguments either of one fide or the other, but from thence I conclude, that even the order which we have feen deferves fome fur the Law are, That the produce of thofe for- A ther confideration, before we come to any B feited Eftates fhall be difpofed of by the E-1 of 1-ay.] My Lords, tho' there were really no other order or direction of any general court of the South-Sea company relating to the difpofal of the money in queftion, befides that which has been laid before your Lordships, I do not know but that it may be pretended, that even the order which your Lordships have feen was a fufficient authority for the difpofal of that money: I: was certainly a fufficient authority for the truftees to deliver the produce of those eftates to the directors of that company, and when in purfuance of that order it was delivered into the hands of the directors; I do not know but that it may be faid, that the terms of the act of Parliament were then D F fuch Refolution as is now propofed; for after your Lordships have feen and confidered that order, your coming to fuch a Refolution is certainly a determination, that the order you have feen and confidered, is no proper or legal order for the difpofal of that money. it as fuch; and even tho' they should be of The courts below will certainly look upon opinion, that that order was a fufficient authority for the difpofing of that money, and that no future order was requifite, yet they would be loath to give a judgment fo contrary to what appeared to have been the judgment of this houfe.---The point now before us cannot be faid to be an indifputable point, and therefore I must think that your Lordfhips coming to fuch a Refolution is a determining of a queftion in difpute, and a making a fort of decree against the Gentlemen who were at that time in the management of that company's affairs, before they have been heard either by themfelves or their council upon a question in which both their honour and intereft are fo nearly concerned: This is a method of proceeding which, I hope, this houfe will never come into, or into any Refolution which may affect either the character or eftate of any private man, without firft giving him an opportunity to be heard against it.---We ought, my Lords, to confider that we are a court of equity, and tho' it should appear that the money arifing from thofe forfeited eftates had been difpofed of without fuch an authority as was neceffary in the ftrict terms of law, yet if it has been difpofed of in the best manner for the benefit of the company, the then directors ought in equity to stand acq itted, they ought not to be loaded with any thing like a fentence of so auguft an ailem ly against them; and therefore, it is really my opinion that you ought not to come to fuch a Refolution as now moved for, 'till the affair comes properly before you, and all parties are heard what they have to fay either in law or equity in their own behalf, therefore I muft move for the previous question. G complied with, and that the directors might H E-- of S---gh.] My Lords, as to the order of the general court of the South-Nea company, which has been laid before your Lordfhips, furely it cannot be looked on either in law or equity as an order directing how the money in queftion was to be difpfed of, nor can it ever be perfumed that it will be the opinion of any court, or of any man, that an order directing only who fhouid be the trustees of the company as to that money, was an order for directing to what ufes it ought to be applied; therefore, if thar point were to be exprefsly determined, it Could not be of any bad confequence in A B cafe whatever, but by the Refolution propofed, even that question, if it must be called à queftion, is not to be exprefsly determined. We are now, to determine nothing but a point of law, which to me appears fo plain that I cannot hesitate one moment in giving my opinion. The words of the act of Parliament are fo very exprefs, that there can be no doubt of its being contrary to law, to difpofe of that money, without any order or direction of a general court for that purpole; and I am fure it is as plain, that the delivering of that money by the truflees to the directors is not fuch a difpo'al of the rioney as is intended by that act.---It it fhall afterwards appear, that the produce of thofe forfeited eftates was difpofed of according to the directions of general courts, the refolution, or, if your Lordships please, the determination now propofed can affect no man, and if there never was any other order C or direction of a general court for that purpofe befides what we have feen, our Relolution can affect none but those who without all queftion are guilty at leaft of an error, for which they certainly deferve to be cenfured.---I do confider, my Lords, that this houfe is a court of equity, but the Refolution moved for has relation only to a point D of law, it has no manner of relation to equity, nor can any man be thereby debarred from having relief in equity, either before your Lordihips, or before any of the courts of equity below and therefore, if thofe Gentlemen fhould hereafter come to fhew, that tho' they neglected the due forms of law, they E did nevertheless difpofe of that money in fuch a manner as was most for the benefit of the company, I fhould not think myself any way reftrained by this refolution from giving them all the relief in equity that their cafe can deferve. Therefore I fhall make no fcruple of agreeing to a Refolution which I think juft, and abfolutely neceffary, because it will oblige thofe who are concerned to be at pains to clear up, if they can. an affa r which is certainly as yet very obfcure, and which your Lordships are in honour obliged to fee fully cleared up, if it be poffible. The E-1 of C---lafpoke alfo for the Refolution, and the D. of N---le againftit. The previous queftion was then put, and upon a divifion there were of Lords prefent 45 contents, and 57 not contents; and of proxies 2 contents, and 19 not contents; fo that it was carried against the Refolution by a Majority of five, G DEBATE on a motion for a committee of enquiry, that I have met with any fatisfaction as to that affair, and I believe no other Lord has. It appears that the accounts of that company have been kept in fo confufed and irregular a manner, that there is no coming at the knowledge of any one particular, without a thorough enquiry into the whole. From what already appears to your Lordships, I believe, you will be all of opinion, that fich a general and exact enquiry is now become abfolutely neceflary; because we are, in my opinion, obliged in honour to fee the affair relating to the difpofal of those eftates folly cleared up; by the very first act of Parlia ment relating to this affair, the trustees were directed to give a particular account, in writing, to the King and to either houfe of Parliament, of the effects of their proceedings. To what end, my Lords, were the trustees directed to give fuch an account? The intention certainly was, that the King, the Lords and the Commons thould, as guardians fee that money fairly collected, and honeftly difpofed of for the benefit of the proprietors of that company, according to the directions of that or any future act of Parliament for regulating the difpofal of that money. This houfe therefore is in honour obliged to fee that it was honeftly difpofed of. In fuch a cafe are we to fatisfy ourselves with being told, that tho' the terms of the act of Parliament were not strictly complied with, yet the money was equitably difpofed of for the benefit of the proprietors; efpecially when this equitable difpofal comes out at laft to be, a difpofal of it towards payment of debts, as to which no man can tell how or when they were contracted? I muft obferve, that it looks much the more fufpicious, because fuch a large debt was paid off without any orders of a general court for fo doing; if directions had been asked for, it may at leaft be prefumed that the general court would in their turn have asked, how fuch a large debt came to be contracted?----Therefore, my Lords, as a general enquiry into that company's affairs is become abfolutely neceflary, and as it cannot be supposed that we thall have time this feffion, or even during any one whole feffion of Parliament, to go through fuch a general enquiry, I fhall take the liberty to move, That a committee may be appointed to examine into the management of the affairs of the South-Sea company ever since the year 1720, and for that purpose to fit during the recefs of Parliament at fuch places and times as they shall appoint, and that they may have power to fend for perfons, papers and records.--The appointing fuch a committee is, my Lords, a method that in former cafes has been practifed by both houfes; and if the other house thinks proper they may likewise appoint a committee of their houfe, to fit in conjunction with the committee to be appointed by your Lordships, to the end that both houfes may againft next feffion of Parliament be made fully acquainted with all the proceedings and tranfactions in the manage- B E L-d Ct.] My Lords, I fhall readily agree with this motion, because I think we have met with fo little fatisfaction as to the particular affair we have enquired into, that it is incumbent upon us, we are for the honour and dignity of this house, and in duty to C our country bound to proceed further, and to make a general enquiry into the whole management of that company's affairs, ever The creditors of the fince the year 1720. publick ought always to be under the fpecial care of the publick; and as this houfe has joined with the other parts of the legislature D in vefting almost the whole debts of the nation in the three great companies of EaftIndia, Bank, and South-Sea, your Lordships are, I think, in honour obliged to take care that the creditors of the publick fhall not be cheated by thofe, whom they may from time to time, chufe to be directors of their affairs.---This, my Lords, ought always to be our care, but more especially when fome very odd pieces of management appear even at the bar of our own houfe. If the books of the South-Sea company had been kept in a diftin& and regular manner, it would have been eafy for your Lordships to have had all the fatisfaction that conld have been defired, either with refpect to the general ftate of that company's affairs, or with refpect to any particular branch of their bufinefs; but from the enquiry we have already made it appears, that the books of that company have been kept in a very confufed and irregular manner; altogether unintelligible to thofe who are ftrangers to the management of their affairs, and cannot, we find, be explained even by those who are the book-keepers and G fervants of the company. From hence, I think there is great caufe to fufpe&t fome lurking frauds, and that their books were kept in this manner with defign to conceal fome practices which the managers durft not expofe to publick view.---This confideration alone is fufficient, in my opinion, to engage your Lordships to enter into a general enquiry as to the affairs of that company; and fince it appears that fuch an enquiry must take up a very long time, and will require an exa& fcrutiny into many volumes of books D-ke of N-le.] My Lords, I shall al- |