To return, however, to the state of Ireland. Wearied by the disappointment of the expectations which they have year after year indulged; the country experiencing one crisis of distress after another; it is not surprising that the Catholics of Ireland have at length become impatient; and that, out of that impatience has arisen that Association which we are called upon in his majesty's Speech, to put down by strong legislative measures. The Speech talks of "Associations" in the plural. That is not without an object. I warn the House, however, not to be taken in by the contrivance. That little letter s, is one of the slyest introductions that Belial ever resorted to, in any of those speeches which are calculated to

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make the worse appear The better reason, to perplex and dash Maturest counsels: for his thoughts are low." I am perfectly aware, Sir, by whom that s was added. I know the handwriting. I know the reflection which passed through the mind of the writer. "I must put the word in the plural. It will then be considered as applicable to Orange as to Catholic Associations, and the adversaries of both will be conciliated." Let not that little letter s, however, deceive a single person. However it may be pretended to hold the balance even between the Catholic and the Orange Associations, depend upon it it will be only a nominal equity. It will be like one of those "subtile equities" so well known in the court over which the noble and learned lord to whom I have been alluding presides. Let the proposed measures be carried, and the Catholic Association will be strongly put down with one hand, while the Orange Association will receive only a gentle tap with the other. That will be the result, if we allow ourselves to be deceived by this apparent equity. I will, therefore, not assent to the proposition, come in what shape it may. Unquestionably, it is to be regretted that the proceedings of any Association in Ireland should be irreconcileable with the constitution, or calculated to create alarm by exciting animosities. For my own part, I do not entirely approve the measures of any of the Associations. I never, that I remember, approved of all the measures of any public body; especially where religious were mixed up with civil VOL. XII.

men are roused, it is not surprising that they should go a step beyond strict propriety. But, making the allowance which it is but just to make under the peculiar circumstances of the case, I take upon myself conscientiously to say, after the most attentive observation and vigilant inspection of all which the Catholic Association have done and said, that I cannot discover a single word or act which justifies the charge conveyed in his majesty's Speech. The language used by the Association has been sneered at by the noble lord who moved the Address. It would be more prudent on the part of the noble lord to endeavour to imitate their eloquence, instead of venting sarcasms upon it. At the same time, the noble lord observed, that he was not disposed to treat the Association with contempt. That the noble lord should not be disposed to treat with contempt the most respectable members of the Catholic church, in Ireland, and through them, a population of six millions of persons, who will now, probably for the first time, hear of the existence of the noble lord, does not surprise me. Surprised I certainly should have been had he said he was disposed to treat them with contempt, especially when I took into the account the noble lord's good sense, moderation, and liberality. To treat such a body of men with contempt, would require a degree of superciliousness greater than even signior Pococuranté could boast. Is there any one who can deny that the leading members of the Catholic Association are men of great influence in Ireland? Is there any one who can contradict my assertion, that the Association receives the hearty support of the whole body of the Catholics in Ire land? Sir, I am greatly misinformed-and I am misinformed by those too who must possess the best means of knowledge-if the Catholic Association in Ireland does not actually and virtually represent the wishes and feelings of almost all the Catholic body in that country. It is true that the whole of the proceedings of that Association may not be approved by every body. The right hon. and learned attorney-general for Ireland thought (I, for one, certainly did not agree with him) that one of the members of that Association, in the warmth of his eloquence, had gone beyond what moderation would have dictated. But when the right hon. and learned gentleman submitted that ob

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noxious speech to the consideration of 23 impartial individuals, they differed from him. To that right hon. and learned gentleman the Catholics are, however, indebted for the most inestimable services. If any man in England, or in Ireland, has contributed more than any other to place the Catholics in the condition of power in which they are now placed, he is that man. If not the father of the Association, he has armed them with their present authority. For who, after the venerated Grattan, ever pleaded the cause of the Catholics with half the strength of reasoning and brilliancy of eloquence? There are many who may not approve of all the measures adopted by the Association-of the rent for instance-but who may still be ready to adhere to the Association with their lives. To attack, by act of parliament, an Association thus representing the sentiments, wishes, and feelings of the people of Ireland, would be to attack the people of Ireland themselves. And, how are you to draw the line? How can you put down that body, and not put down, at the same time, hundreds of bodies of similar construction? Subscriptions are raised by other bodies. They are raised by other than Catholics, and for other purposes than to prevent the circulation of the bible. What is to become of the bible societies, the annual contribution of which is, I understand, ninety or a hundred thousand pounds; and which spread their branches all over the realm? These societies have enlisted under their banners many of the leaders of the great sects. They include many dignitaries of the church. At their head is a peer of the realm. One of the most active members of the Auxiliary Bible Societies is a noble lord with whom in his commercial policy I have now so often the honour to act; I mean the earl of Liverpool [a laugh]; not to mention another noble lord (Bexley), who, however we formerly differed on questions of trade, would now, I suppose, be ready to meet me at least half way upon such questions. There are other Associations which ought to be put down on the principle on which it is sought to put down the Catholic Association. Some of them are of a much more pernicious character. How can those individuals attack the Catholic Association who supported an association to which the duke of Wellington was a subscriber-the Bridge-street Association? "Oh, but," they will say," that Association merely

prosecuted the writers of libels; they did not attempt to regain the rights of their countrymen." But, is the latter a less laudable purpose than the former? Are they only to be punished who complain of the grievances they suffer? But, Sir, I mention these things merely to show the extreme difficulty of legislating on the subject. I fear I shall have but too many occasions for being more diffuse respecting it. From the very first to the very last of the proposed proceedings-on the first reading of the projected bill-nay, on the production of the papers on which the motion for leave to bring in the bill will probably be founded, I, for one, will take my stand, and give to it every opposition which a man so indifferently endowed for so great a task as I can make, to what appears to me to be an enormous mischief, bottomed in the grossest injustice, pregnant with the most fatal consequences; and which, in my opinion, must lead, sooner or later, to the severance of the two kingdoms [hear, hear,]. Sir, it would at present be no difficult task to alienate the minds of the people of Ireland from this country. They were taught to look to the British parliament for support; that support has failed them. They were advised to look up to their representatives, but there again they found themselves deceived. There is not in this House any man who more laments the fact than I do; but so it is, that the peace of Ireland is secured by the Catholic Association, and the Catholic Association alone. Ireland is at this moment tranquil. Never were the laws of the land more regularly enforced, more cheerfully obeyed in that country, than they are at present. It is true that some abuses of the administration of the laws are still complained of; yet, such is the luxury of even an approach to an equal distribution of justice amongst these poor people, that they already rejoice and feel comparatively happy. But has this feeling been produced by the government of the country? I deny it; it would be but to cloak the truth to make such an assertion--it has been produced by the exertions of the Catholic Association [hear, hear !]. The people of Ireland placed their trust in you. They found themselves disappointed. They threw themselves upon their former friends, those friends who had supported and flattered them at a period when we were surrounded by war and by danger, and they found that the war being over, and the

Ireland; they must know the strength which it has attained, and the deep root which it has taken: they may try to put it down by an act of parliament; and they may do so, in twenty-four hours they may do so; but, if they do it, or attempt to do it, then I say they are unworthy of the smallest portion of that praise which they have received, for the removal of even the most trifling restriction, which in their liberal policy, they have removed from our foreign commerce, and for the which no man is more ready to give them credit than myself. I say you may put down the Catholic Association in twenty-four hours, but if you do, it is your own fault. You are conscious of the injuries you have in. flicted on that body; you feel that you have denied to it even common justice, and now its ghost haunts you. If, however, you really wish to pu tthat body down; if you wish to annihilate it for ever; then, I say, let the Roman Catholics know that you are determined to carry the question of emancipation. Let them know that you are determined, though late, to do them justice, and there is at once an end to the Catholic Association. That you may be so wise, so just, as to do this, instead of waging a harsh and impolitic war against six millions of oppres sed subjects is my most sincere wish; would I could say my most sanguine hope. I beg pardon for having trespassed at such length upon the House. I have little more to add, than that I have, upon this occasion, been prevented from taking a more decided course, solely by the reflection, that at this period it would be injudicious, in my view of the question, to take the sense of the House upon it, many of its most sincere and zealous supporters being absent. So convinced, however, was I of the justice of my cause, that I could not refrain from giving this warning, and thus liberating my own mind from the guilty responsibility of an acquiescence in the measures alluded to in his majesty's Speech.

danger subsided, their friends took to of fice and to power, and deserted them. Having found this, I then ask, Sir, what resource had this body? They discovered that they had no hope from parliament; that they could not trust their friends; at least those leading friends who forsook them for office: what then, I ask, could they do, but throw themselves upon those persons who continued to advocate their cause and support their interests? But, his majesty's ministers complained of this; and why? just because it is their own handy work; a piece of machinery of their own creation, and, therefore, they hate and abuse it. They say, and very naturally, "this is our own work; we may thank ourselves for allowing this Catholic Association, this new power to grow up; but now that it has grown, we dread and would crush it." Let me ask, Sir, how can they do this? It has been well said by Swift, that nothing is more common in society than that men should first render themselves ridiculous by their actions, and then turn round and feel angry because other men laughed at them. And, Sir, there is nothing more unreasonable, and yet more common, than that bad rulers should create mischiefs, and afterwards turn round, and find fault with, and feel enraged at, those who, whilst they complained of the evil, pointed out the remedy. But, what is to be done? They tell us that the government must be kept in motion, while at the same time they vituperate and find fault with some of the members who are connected with it, and the alarm of rebellion is spread abroad. Sir, I mean to cast no reflections on any set of persons. I thank God there never was a period when disaffection was less to be apprehended in Ireland, than at present; and, in my opinion, there is only one way by which those unfortunate disturbances can be rekindled: namely, by taking legal steps to put down the Catholic Association. If, Sir, you introduce such a measure as this; if you turn a deaf ear to the complaints and sufferings of that unhappy country, if, I say, you annihilate that body which your own negligence and misgovernment have allowed to grow up, you will give an additional proof of the impolicy of your measures, and the want of attention to the interests and happiness of Ireland [hear, hear!]. This House, as well as his majesty's ministers must know, Sir, that the system now complained of, has so grown up in

Lord F. L. Gower, in explanation, disclaimed any thing like an intention to cast ridicule upon any of the gentlemen who were considered orators in the Catholic Association.

Mr. Brougham rejoiced that he had given the noble lord an opportunity of explaining a matter which had been misapprehended both by himself and some friends who sat round him.

The Hon. William Lamb said, he would not have intruded himself so upon the House were it not for the observation that had been so pointedly directed against him by the hon. and learned gentleman. The cheer to which the hon. and learned gentleman alluded had been drawn from him for no other reason but this, that he thought the hon. and learned gentleman's language somewhat too exaggerated when speaking of the effect that would have been produced in the times preceding those of Charles 2nd if any person dared to talk of scruples in a high quarter. This he had thought tended to weaken the hon. and learned gentleman's argument; and that was his only motive for expressing what he felt, in the usual manner, by a cheer. The hon. and learned gentleman was pleased to observe, that he had tried all parties and opinions. He was not aware on what facts this assertion was founded. As he had never been one of those who despaired of the resources of the country, even when most depressed, so he did not wish to encourage a too sanguine feeling with respect to the extent to which our prosperity was likely to go. In the one case, as in the other, he would recommend moderation, both in aclation and in expectations. With respect to the Catholic Association, he begged to observe, that he conceived a case was likely to be made out against it, sufficiently strong to induce him to vote for its regulation, if not suppression. There were, it was true, other Associations of a nearly similar description, but they differed in this, that they did not interfere in political subjects. If an assembly of persons met, and, under the pretence of seeking redress for particular grievances, proceeded to discuss the whole political affairs of the empire, then he maintained, that such a society was a fit subject for legislative interference. Again, subscriptions for particular public purposes were perfectly Jegal; but, if he found that the Roman Catholic clergy were actively engaged in collecting what was called Catholic rent, he should say that it was a symptom to be viewed with great alarm. When it was considered, that the Roman Catholic elergy arrogated to themselves the power of absolution-the power of totally forgiving sins-then he maintained, that their operations ought to be looked to with great caution, and only tolerated when directed to purposes purely spiritual. Notwithstanding these opinions, however,

he was now, as he had ever been, the staunch friend of Catholic emancipation. Let the conduct of the Catholic Association be what it might, still he felt that all religious distinctions ought to be removed. Whenever that question came forward, he should be found its firm supporter; but he could not help observing, that the success of it was in a great degree endangered by the imprudence, if not the violence, of some of its advocates. It should not be forgotten, that there were in this country deep and well-founded objections to that question, and that however time and circumstances might have quieted or removed those prejudices, they ought not to be aroused by any injudicious conduct on the part of those, or the friends of those, who seek for emancipation.

Mr. Secretary Canning said, he considered the speech of the hon. and learned gentleman opposite as directed rather against errors, supposed or imputed, which were not of so serious a nature as to tempt him to violate the unanimity which at present prevailed. It might be taken ia the light of notices for discussion for the future, of the various topics upon which he touched. The hon. and learned gentle man had reviewed the principal topics of the Speech from the throne, visiting some with no very gracious approbation, and treating others with no very sparing reprobation. With respect to one subjectthat of Catholic emancipation-professing as he had at all times to support it, he must still reserve to himself the right of judging as to the time the most proper for giving effect to that support; nor could he on any account consent to take his instructions from the hon. and learned gentleman. Upon that part of the Speech from the throne which referred to the Catholie Association, he had no hesitation in expressing his entire accordance with his hon. friend who spoke last-that, so far from the Association being identified with the interests of the Catholic people, its insti❤ tution, and the conduct of its members, more resembled the scheme of an enemy, who had devised this as the best invention for throwing back and thwarting the further progress of the question of emanci pation. If the worst enemy of Catholic emancipation had purposely sat down to devise means to exasperate the people against that measure, he could not have hit upon means more certain he could not have imagined a plan so successfully mischievous as the institution and conduct

of the Catholic Association. To one argument of the hon.and learned gentleman he would advert, as particularly deserving of an answer, connected as it was with a subject to which he and his colleagues had given their most serious consideration. They had asked themselves, if no steps were taken by the government for that purpose, might not the mischief die away of itself? That, for a time, was his sincere opinion: and he appealed for proofs of it to his conduct during the last session of parliament. Had the hon. and learned gentleman forgotten how ministers were then goaded to bring forward some measure to stifle the restless spirit which was then said to prevail? Had he forgotten the answer then given that they (the ministers) thought it better to wait until it should die away of itself: and that at all events they declined calling upon the House or any extraordinary expedient until the effect of patience should have been fairly tried? The mode of treating this subject taken by the hon. and learned member was a singular one. To prove that the existence of the Catholic Association was admissible, he ought to have shown that they were a body perfectly harmless-a meeting of a few zealous individuals, who did not in any manner profess to represent the whole people of Ireland-who had no design of assuming the character of a government. On the contrary, the hon. and learned gentleman had exaggerated even beyond their own most gross and exaggerated account. He had told the House that the Catholic Association was the government of the country. "You are indebted," said he, "to the Catholic Association for the peace and tranquillity of Ireland." He remembered correctly the extent of his own prophesies with respect to the fate of Ireland. He forgot entirely, or else overlooked, the administration of the last three years. He left out of view the eminent talents and merits of the marquis Wellesley, in retrieving, by the firm and equal justice of his government, the respect and authority due to the laws. The steps taken by that great man to secure the enjoyment equally for Catholics and Protestants of the sunshine of government and the favours of the Crown, were nothing. It was to nothing of all this, that the comparative tranquillity of Ireland was attributable. No: her repose was the work of the Catholic Association! Most earnestly was it to be wished, that the curzent of that wise and benevolent adminis

"Doris amara suam non intermisceat undam."

Whatever disappointment awaited the greater measure of emancipation must be ascribed to that body. It was well for the Catholics that they had no more consideration in the public mind. He as much confided in the eventual carrying of that measure, as he was convinced of the certainty that it would be opposed, if now brought forward, by this whole country as by one man. It seemed that the Catholic Association was the cause of the peace which prevailed. By what charm had they brought about this object. Whence did they obtain their magical elements of concord? From the pit of Acheron! Their combination was cemented by an adjuration of horror and loathing-" Be peaceable, by the hatred which you bear the Orangemen !" This was the charm by which they worked-These the means by which they proposed to extract peace out of hatred. Good God! was it for reasoning men deliberately to put such a bond of union into writing, and when called upon to explain themselves, deliberately to affirm the deed? To inculcate peace among themselves, through their steadfast hatred of their fellow subjects? Could this be Catholicism? He trusted that it was not. Sure he was it was not Christianity. He protested against any measure which might be brought down to keep the proceedings of that body within the proper limits of the laws and the constitution being treated as a measure directed against the Catholic people of Ireland, or as any device to throw impediments in the way of discussing that great question. Did the hon. and learned gentleman know-did the Catholic Association know-so little of the English people as to suppose that menace and intimidation could avail them? Could they really suppose that these would be as arms in the hands of their advocates? Did they not feel that every sentence of that kind must operate as an injunction to their advocates to hold their peace, till the impression of that violence could be effaced from the minds of the English people? Let no one consider him, therefore, as opposing the just claims of the Catholics. He did them good in every thing which he did towards ridding them of that incubus which now rode them.