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that country, the Catholics of Ireland preserved almost a perfect silence with respect to their claims, anxious to give to the confidential servants of his majesty the enviable glory of making constitutional arrangements, which would tend to procure the emancipation of seven millions of his majesty's subjects; they waited in the humble hope and expectation that the legislature would, unsolicited, have enacted some measure for their relief; they waited in submission and in silence, a whole session was allowed to pass away, and their claims were not even discussed in parliament; it was not until an advanced period of the session of 1823, that their petition was presented to the House; and notwithstanding what they respectfully claim to be and are now humbly ready to prove at the bar of the House to be, the irresistible justice of their claims, notwithstanding all their patience, silence, and submission, it was at that period deemed expedient to dismiss their humble and dutiful claims without any repeal of the laws by which they are aggrieved; thus disappointed, the Catholics of Ire

the petitioners, in the face of parliament and the world, pledge their honour and their faith that they will in that case instantly dissolve themselves; but if, on the other hand, it shall appear, that the conduct of the Catholic Association has been strictly constitutional, that they have met for the purpose of considering various grievances which affect their body, and of bringing same in the shape of humble petitions under the consideration of the legislature; if it shall appear that they have ever laboured to inspire the people with affection for the sovereign, with confidence in the House, and with due respect for the laws; if it shall appear that they have taught the people to shun all secret and illegal combinations, to bear their burthens with patience, to look up for justice and redress to the tribunals of their country; if, moreover, it shall appear that the discontent which prevailed in that country, when the Catholic Association first assembled, gradually subsided, as the petitioners pointed out to the people the mode of obtaining constitutional redress; if it shall appear that the outrages, for the suppression of which extraor-land felt the necessity of bestirring themdinary powers were confided to his ma- selves in their own affairs, and it was jesty, have so far ceased as to warrant the deemed right to enter into an Association suspension of the exercise of those powers to promote the general interests of their in most of the districts heretofore disturb- body, and to bring under the frequent coned; if it shall appear that the value of sideration of parliament the various and landed and other property has greatly in-heavy grievances of which the Catholic creased; that industry and commercial en- people of Ireland complain; that the Caterprize, the sure signs of improving times, tholic Association was formed first and and the cheering fruits of public tranquil-chiefly for such purpose; it consists of lity, are extending themselves in that part Catholic prelates, peers, and baronets, of of the United kingdom; if all this shall many Protestants of noble families and appear, the petitioners hope that no mea- great possessions, of many distinguished sure irreconcileable with the spirit of members of high and learned professions, the constitution, will meet the sanction of of commercial men of great wealth and the House, and that the House will not character, of country gentlemen, farmers, listen to that which the petitioners are traders, and substantial citizens; that the humbly ready to prove at the bar of the Association meet publicly, in order to preHouse would be the wicked project of pare and forward petitions to both Houses passing new penal laws, which can have of parliament for the redress of grievances; no other consequence than to embitter and to procure for the poor, the ignorant, cruel disappointment, and to irritate and and the defenceless, redress from the known inflame an already aggrieved people, whose tribunals of the law, for outrages and inwrongs have been frequently acknowledg-juries arising from party spirit; that the ed, but have never been redressed; at-petitioners never presumed or pretended tacked and calumniated as they have been, to represent in any way or for any purpose, the petitioners hope they may be pardoned if, with the anxiety natural to honourable and loyal men, they avail themselves of this opportunity to enter into a more particular explanation of their character and their conduct; for a considerable time after the gracious visit of his majesty to

any portion of their countrymen; that the petitioners never presumed or pretended to levy any sum of money from any portion of their fellow-subjects, but they have received the voluntary subscriptions which have been given by Protestants and Catholics towards the creation

GAME LAWS.] Mr. S. Wortley moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the existing Game Laws, which was precisely the same, he said, as that which he had submitted to the House last session.

Sir J. Shelley wished that a clear fortnight should be allowed to elapse between the introduction of the bill and the third reading.

Sir J. Brydges objected to the principle of the bill, and said, he would endeavour to strangle the measure in its infancy.

of a fund, formed to defray the expenses | first petition, that the petitioners be heard of forwarding petitions to the House, of by themselves or their counsel, at the bar obtaining justice for the poor, who are not of the House. able to obtain justice for themselves, and for other necessary, just, and lawful purposes; amongst the subscriptions to this National Fund, are to be found those of noble Protestant families, of many members of the legislature, and of other high and dignified persons; even the very last subscription that appears on their list bears the name of a noble and venerable personage, whose virtues shed dignity and splendour even upon the exalted honours of the British peerage; the petitioners, in conclusion, disclaim all views and objects inconsistent with the spirit of the constitution, of the peace, happiness, and improvement of the country, to which they are attached by so many ties, and in which they have so great a stake; in the consciousness of their innocence, they hum-present system were obvious. The gaols bly pray the House to take into consider. ation the subject of this their humble petition, and to adopt no measure against the Catholic Association, or against any portion of the Catholic people of Ireland, without first affording to petitioners a full opportunity of vindicating their principles and conduct at the bar of the House, and to be heard, if necessary, as well by witness as by their counsel."

Mr. Hume said, that the promoters of the most atrocious bill ever introduced into parliament, had grounded the measure mainly upon two or three words in an address from the Catholic Association, The words were "by the hatred you bear the Orangemen." On bringing in the bill, the right hon. Secretary had read these words as if they meant by the hatred the Catholics bore to the whole of the Protestant community in Ireland. The words had reference to the practices of the Orange party to entrap the ignorant Catholics into the commission of crimes, for which they were afterwards visited with the penalties of the law, and which practices had become so notorious as to justify the declaration which had been made. He was instructed to represent to the House, that every statement which had been made to the disadvantage of the Catholic Association could be proved on oath to be totally groundless.

Ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. Brougham then presented a petion against the Unlawful Societies bill, from Newry, and gave notice, that he would, to-morrow, move, on behalf of the

Mr. R. Colborne thought the present game laws were open to so many objections, and that any attempt to amend them ought to have a fair trial.

Mr. Curwen said, that the evils of the

were filled with poachers; game was destroyed to a considerable extent, and was, in many places, openly sold, notwithstanding the penalties. He highly approved of the general principle of the bill.

Mr. Secretary Peel was also favourable to the measure. It would have a beneficial effect in diminishing poaching. He wished, however, that the hon. member had confined himself to legalizing the sale of game, and giving the owner of the ground a property in them, without extending his views to any alterations of the qualification for sporting. It was an attempt to do too much last year, that the failure of the bill was to be attributed.

Mr. Tennyson also recommended a more gradual reform in the Game laws. This bill went too far. He sincerely hoped, that the illegality of traps to catch the unwary as well as the guilty would be put beyond all doubt.

Mr. Lockhart deprecated the use of traps for the protection of game. They were a disgrace to the country.

Mr. H. Sumner would resist the bill, as he wholly disapproved of its object.

Mr. Bright was favourable to this alteration of the law, and lamented that the right hon. gentleman should have said any thing in favour of spring guns.

Mr. Peel denied that he had done so. On the contrary, the practice of setting spring guns in open woods for the preservation of game, met with his decided disapprobation.

Sir R. Heron was for limiting the bill to legalizing the sale of game.

Mr. Cripps was of opinion that the bill as proposed went too far.

Mr. Benett, of Wilts, supported the measure. He did not believe that spring guns were set in any woods by game preservers in the West of England. He should hold himself guilty of murder, if life were lost on his grounds, in consequence of the employment of these engines.

Mr. F. Palmer approved of the bill, and attributed the recent increase of poaching to the low wages which labour. ers received [hear].

Mr. S. Wortley, speaking from experience, was of opinion, that the setting of spring guns prevented scenes which would be ten times more fatal than any which could result from them. If the question was narrowed to the sale of game, he would wash his hands of the bill. His first principle was, to give every occupier of land a right to the game thereon, and protection against the poacher and trespasser. His second was, to make the sale of game legal.

Leave was given to bring in the bill.

TURNPIKE TRUSTS.] Lord Lowther, in pursuance of notice, moved for the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the receipts, expenditure, and management of the several Turnpike Trusts in the county of Middlesex. In order to shew the necessity of investigation, the noble lord entered into some statements regarding the trusts in the neighbourhood of the metropolis. For three miles and a half of road to the north of London, there were three acts of parliament, three sets of commissioners, and ten turnpikegates. Not less than 200,000l. were collected in various directions within ten miles of the city, and about half the sum was consumed in salaries and perquisites. An account, before the House, of the Stamford-hill trust, shewed that a large sum had been laid out in annuities, and, on inquiry, he found that these annuities, with interest of 10 per cent, had been granted to some of the trustees by others of the trustees for monies advanced, and said to be necessary for the maintenance of the road. An abuse also existed in the summoning of trustees only, to serve upon special juries. Generally, where the largest sum was collected from the public, the worst management existed; and of this, the noble lord adduced several instances. The tolls of the gate in Bishopsgate-street, VOL. XII.

instead of being applied to the purposes of the highways, had been expended in relief of the parish rates. The multiplicity of gates in the vicinity of London was a great loss to the public, not only in money but in health, since it made travelling so expensive. Between Hyde-parkcorner and Hounslow, no less than 22,000l. were annually collected, and it seemed impossible that the sum could be laid out in the repair of the road for that short distance. The inquiries last year regarding the Kensington trust, had done much good. The balance had been taken out of the hands of the treasurer, and placed with a respectable banker, after the payment of the debt. He expected hostility from both sides of the Thames, but at present he limited his inquiry to Middlesex, hoping to accomplish something, by not attempting too much in the first instance.

Sir E. Knatchbull admitted, that the noble lord had made out a case requiring investigation. If the object was, to throw the turnpike trusts into the hands of government, or to place all the roads under the superintendence of Mr. M'Adam, he should decidedly resist such a course; convinced that it would only lead to corruption and jobs, which he always had opposed.

Mr. Sumner said, that the greatest injustice would be done to individuals, if they were not allowed to vindicate them. selves before a committee from the charges brought against them. He therefore should not oppose the motion.

Mr. Hume thought the inquiries of the committee should be extended to all turnpike trusts within ten miles of the metropolis. Turnpikes existed in all directions, from the very centre of the town, and it was highly desirable that the committee should take into its consideration the expediency of removing them to a greater distance, if not of doing away with them altogether. The expense levied upon the public within four miles of the metropolis amounted to not less than 200,000l. whereas 60 or 70,000l. properly employed would be amply sufficient. He should move, as an amendment, that the inquiries of the committee be extended to all turnpike trusts within ten miles of London.

Mr. Maberly thought the public indebted to the noble lord for having brought this subject under the consideration of parliament. He was persuaded

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that the result of the inquiry would be, an enormous saving to the public.

Sir T. Baring approved of the noble lord's motion. The tax on the public from this source amounted to no less than a million and a half, which sum was disposed of by irresponsible persons, amenable to no tribunal. When a turnpike bill passed that House, the number of respectable names introduced into it, appeared to afford a sufficient security for the proper expenditure of the money; but the fact was, that the actual disposal of the money devolved on persons of a very different description, who too frequently applied it to their own purposes. The motion, as amended, was then agreed to.

USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.] Mr. Serjeant Onslow moved the order of the day for the second reading of this bill.

Mr. Calcraft said, he felt it his duty to oppose this measure, which had now, for some time been annually brought under the consideration of parliament. The present prosperity of the country, and the convenient state of the money market, furnished of themselves, in his opinion, a strong argument against the repeal of the existing laws. It had been said, that it was impossible to oppose this measure on general principles of policy, for that it was the soundest policy to allow every man perfect liberty to dispose of every description of property in any manner he thought fit. In the expediency of that general principle he was disposed to concur. But, to this principle they had numerous exceptions daily before their eyes. For instance, a man in building a House was compelled to build his wall of a particular thickness to guard against fire. A man was not allowed to keep a gambling table. Both the gamblers and the keepers of those Houses were restricted by law. Only a few days ago the court of King's-Bench had imposed a fine of 5,000l. on an individual for this very offence. According to the principle of the learned serjeant, that man ought to have turned round on the chief justice and said, "You have no right to punish me for this conduct; it is an unjust interference with my disposal of my own money." But the chief justice would answer" It is my duty to punish you; you have transgressed a law which was made for the good of the community." If we traced the current history of the country, we should find, that these laws

had had a most beneficial effect. Under these laws it was, that the country had attained its present extraordinary state of prosperity. The hon. member then referred to the spirit of speculation which at present prevailed; and said, that if it was true that there should be an unlimited privilege of disposing of money, there would be no justice in the proposed interference of a noble and learned lord in another place, whose experience was greater than that of any other man in this country, and whose knowledge was more extensive, in consequence of his having so long presided over the Chancery court. But, say gentlemen on the other side of this argument, it is a mutual accommodation to the lender and borrower to remove those laws. He was prepared to admit, that in times of difficulty these laws might be found inconvenient in their operation; but his answer was, that no legislature in the world could guard against these extraordinary emergencies. Another argument was, that by repealing those laws we should do away with the expense of insurances and annuity process; but let gentlemen consider the very small quantity of money transactions that came under this denomination. He contended that it would be most injurious to interfere with those salutary regulations. Was it nothing, that under these laws the country had attained its present exalted situation?

Mr. Hume said, he was clearly of opinion that the House would do well to adopt the recommendation in the king's Speech, and remove all those restrictions which interfered with commercial transactions. He remembered, that when it was proposed to remove the restrictions on the trade between England and Ireland, it was argued by some gentlemen, that to do so would be ruinous to the country. But, the consequence was, that when only a part of them had been removed, the beneficial result was so manifest, that the Irish merchants petitioned for the entire removal of the restrictions; and this cause, perhaps more than any other, had enabled Ireland to bear that full tide of prosperity which was now flowing in and upon her. The hon. member next alluded to the measure said to be in progress in the other House, with respect to the speculations now afloat in the city. His hon. friend had described the proposed measure to be the project of a wise man; but he must state, that it appeared to him exceedingly absurd, and it would surprise him very

Mr. Cripps said, he should oppose the bill. The country had experienced the benefits of the Usury laws. Under them it had attained its present height of prosperity and glory. Would they, then, with a rash hand, break down a system which had been attended with such bencficial consequences?

much if it should ever pass into a law. I that money would be likewise lent on the What right had any man to interfere in same principle? He should give his warm the concerns of another? What right had support to the bill. he to prevent that other from embarking in whatever speculations he pleased? No doubt any man who suffered his name to be implicated in the institution of a scheme which was to be carried into execution by means of a company, took upon himself a certain responsibility. Nothing could be more unworthy than for such a person, be his situation that of Mr. John Smith said; that the argument director or proprietor, to desert the of the hon. gentleman was a curious, and scheme, and place the property of many to him an inconclusive one. Because, persons in a state of jeopardy. It was a during the existence of these laws the paltry act; and he was sure no man whose country had prospered, therefore it would conduct and character were before the be unwise to touch them. Surely, the public would be guilty of such an un- hon. gentleman did not mean to say, that worthy and unprincipled proceeding. To every law which was in operation during that extent he was prepared to discoun- the period when the country was in a tenance these projects; but, if the growing flourishing state, was so perfect, that it commerce of this country required projects would be endangering that prosperity to of public improvement; and, if any man, alter or repeal it. A noble lord had just no matter what his station or his wisdom, made a proposition respecting turnpikes should tell him that it was proper to and tolls, which he was satisfied would compel the parties to pay up at once three- prove of benefit to the community. Now, fourths of the money, which, perhaps, would it not be deemed an irrational mode might not be required for ten years, he of proceeding, if some gentlemen were to should have no hesitation in saying that say, that, because the country was in a such an opinion was most absurd and flourishing state during the existence of injurious. Formerly it was urged, that it the turnpike laws, it would be very ha would be inexpedient to make the alter-zardous to interfere with them. The ation when the rate of interest was high. Why, then, now was the very time; and he felt persuaded, that during his life time the rate of interest would never again reach five per cent. He thought the House would do well to follow the king's advice, and remove the remaining restrictions. Why continue to fetter the money-market, when they conceded the principle of unrestrained traffic in every other commodity? Why was not money to be treated like all other commodities, which the possessor had the privilege of turning as he pleased to his own advantage? What would the country gentlemen think if a bill were introduced into that House for the purpose of fixing the maximum of rent at 15s. per acre? Would they not deem the measure a most unjust and impolitic interference with their rights? As matters stood, the rent of land generally corresponded with its value. The same observation applied to houses. What, then, prevented any gentleman from asking 107. an acre for his land, and double the value for his houses? Nothing, but the certainty that he could not be paid. Was it not fair to conclude

only question was this-will the repeal of these laws be useful or hurtful to the community? All other arguments were idle. In his opinion, the restriction was mischievous. Money was a commodity which would be sure, like other commodities, to obtain its value; and if a law settled the rate at which the use of it was to be paid for below its value, its owners would find means of evading that law. Take, for example, the case of a tradesman who was pressed for money, and supplied his immediate wants by drawing a bill, and had not the means of taking up the bill when it became due. This was a case which frequently occurred, and as the law was imperative on him, what did he do? Why, he went to the banker or holder of the bill, requested him to keep it another week, and offered to give nine or ten guineas for the accommodation. If this man could have borrowed the money of his neighbour, at six or seven per cent, he might have been saved from this sort of ruin. This question had been agitated several years ago, out of the House; and there, at least, it had been finally settled. Mr. Bentham had

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