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mended. He doubted exceedingly whe
ther, at present, it could be carried.
hon. friend of his near him had been very
much misrepresented. He had been mis-
represented, as saying, that the difficulty
of carrying this question was absolutely
and at all times an insuperable one; that
it was absolutely impossible, under any
circumstances, so far to remove all the
prejudices and impressions that at pre-
sent opposed it. This was entirely over-
stating the remarks of the honourable
friend to whom he was alluding.
this he would say that, as far as his own
observation went, there did exist a very
strong feeling in the country against this
measure [Cries of " No, no"]. And
this, too, he must believe-that such feel-

But

conviction, and the duties of their offices, in short, for the single purpose and object of remaining in them, with a view to their emoluments. Now, this he called an unworthy sarcasm; and it was one that he was conscious applied to none of those colleagues with whom he acted. He believed it never would apply to that learned and noble person in another House who held the seals; nor to his noble friend, the first lord of the Treasury; nor to his right hon. friend, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who sat near him. He knew, indeed, that with regard to his right hon. friend near him, nobody had ever ventured to say that he could ever be guilty of such a sacrifice of principle to considerations so unworthy. Now, it was admitted by hon. gentlemen, he being, in a very great degree, arose from lieved, that the present administration was doing very well; and he thought he might add, without vanity, that the country was satisfied with it. But it was agreed, apparently upon all hands, that to attempt to carry the Catholic question would be to break up the government. "Why, then, under such circumstances," continued the right hon. gentleman, "could we who support the measure drive out our colleagues who oppose it, and take the helm of government ourselves? Could we justify such a step to the parliament or to the country? Or would the other side of the House, if we had proceeded to such an extremity, have lent us any assistance under such circumstances of difficulty?" No; he thought not. To be sure, the hon. and learned member for Knaresborough had said, that ministers had rejected assistance from the opposition. But members of the government had positively lent the other side their assistance in respect of the Catholic question. And he did not think that their opponents could persuade themselves to give them assistance towards carrying a measure, for which government could offer no honest or sufficient justification at this period, to the conscientious feeling of the House. The argument, therefore, between the honourable gentlemen on the other side and the government resolved itself into this-they said to government, "For all these evils that have happened you have a remedy;" and government, admitting they had the remedy, declared, "We shall not attempt to use it," for they thought it impossible, with any prospect of success, to attempt to carry the measure which was recom

the acts of the Catholic Association. It was perfectly true, that the measure might pass, as it had already passed, that House by a large majority. But, in the other House, there was a strong feeling against it; and in that large and most important class of the community to whom allusion had been already made in the course of the debate-the middling class—there was a feeling of perhaps a still stronger nature. A very powerful feeling existed against it, also, in another and very influential body; namely, the clergy. Now, this circumstance had been spoken of as matter of great reproach to the clergy; but surely it was a very unfair imputation on them. It was by no means impossible that this body might be influenced by a love for the church as a mere establishment; but, supposing they looked upon it with higher and nobler views, it was not at all an unnatural thing, that they should contemplate with some alarm the admis sion to political power, of those who had been for ages so hostile to their existence, not only as an establishment, but as a faith. Every body knew how great was the influence which the Catholic clergy had over their flocks; every body knew of the changes that had taken place, and in constant course of taking place, in the prejudices and habits both of the one and the other; nor did he see any reason to despair of a great, ultimate, and beneficial change. He knew that such a change had been effected to a very great extent. He had carefully watched the progress of opinion in these matters; and such was the result of his observations. He, of all persons in the world, ought to be the last to say, that no such changes

sity. At that former period, the constitution of this society had not assumed the face it had since put on. Many of those acts from which the danger of the Association was inferred, had not then taken place: for instance, those which related to the society's interference with the administration of justice. The hon. and learned member for Nottingham (Mr. Denman), the other night, thought he had successfully encountered the arguments of the right hon. and learned gentleman who had attacked the defensive argument of the other side in favour of that Association, by drawing a distinction between a society like the Constitutional Association prosecuting for libel, and another society, not interfering in a court of justice on "political" principles. This might all be very true; though he must say he thought it the most miserable defence he had ever heard from the hon. and learned member for Nottingham, who had got out of it, moreover, with less ability than he had ever known him to do before. But, according to that learned member, the Catholic Association interfered, because "the Catholics could not otherwise get justice." Why, therefore, he (the chancellor of the Exchequer) contended, that their interference was political. But, in fact, every act of this sort constituted a political act, and the interference of the Catholic Association became exposed to every one of those theoretical objections which the learned gentleman had, on former occasions, urged with such force against the Constitutional Association. These objections he (the chancellor of the Exchequer) admitted must apply to every society that intermeddled with the administration of public

of opinion could take place. All his own early impressions-all his hereditary prejudices, he might almost say, had been against Catholic emancipation. He had been taught to believe that the papal faith was always connected with arbitrary power; and he was as strongly disposed against any measure of concession as to the claims of the Catholics, as any of his honourable friends near him. He certainly had entirely changed his opinions in this respect; he avowed that he had done so; and he hoped he never should be ashamed of changing them, when he saw good grounds and sufficient reason for doing so. He did believe, that time would produce a very different feeling on this important subject, from that which at present prevailed in this country; but he must contend, that at this moment it prevailed to a very considerable extent indeed; for he in his conscience believed, that there was that prejudice and that hostility in the country to this question, that no administration which could be formed, however powerful, could attempt to pass it; and he thought the most fatal thing which could happen to the question itself, would be the formation of an administration that should lay it down as the basis of its proceedings to carry the measure, and discover, after all, that it could not be carried; for that would throw it back half a century at least, and, perhaps, destroy the cause altogether. With these views, he could not think that he was justly exposed to their reproaches, who thought that he had deserted his duty in forming part of an administration in which the Catholic question-unfortunate he would admithad been left upon its present footing. Having now explained his own situa-justice. He entirely concurred with his tion, and that of his colleagues, and endeavoured to vindicate them and himself from the aspersions cast upon them, he wished to advert to that part of the question before the House which related to the Association. Honourable gentlemen had said, that it was not enough to show convenience-they must also show necessity as a ground for this bill. He perfectly agreed with them. Had his majesty's ministers thought proper to rely upon showing a ground of convenience merely, they might have done so long ago but they did not think that they would be justified in calling upon parliament to interfere in this matter, until interference became matter of necesVOL. XII.

hon. friend on this subject, having never subscribed to the Constitutional Association nor to any other society that so interfered with the administration of public justice. He had never been any party to it. And precisely the same reasons would determine him to be against any other body of the same kind, or exercising in some sort similar functions. But (continued the right hon. gentleman), the hon. and learned member for Knaresborough says, that the prosecutions which had been carried on by the Catholic Association have been of little importance, and dwells much on the acquittals that have taken place. The hon. and learned gentleman forgets, surely, all the

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antecedent proceedings. He forgets that I pass the Catholic question; there's the rethe Catholic Association assumed the fact, medy; you will hear no more of the Assothat murder had been committed. He ciation." In the first place, Sir, I do not forgets that they sent an agent to conduct believe that, to pass the Catholic question the prosecution of the man so prematurely would produce general satisfaction in Iredeclared guilty. He forgets the extreme land. Although I am a friend to that unfairness of a trial under such circum- question, I do not believe that its triumph stances; circumstances entirely at variance would create universal content. It would with the sentiments of that address which certainly remove a grievance; and, as far the hon. and learned gentleman com- as that goes, would do good; but we mented on in terms of unlimited com- must never forget, that while we are remendation. Did that address stand as moving discontent in one part, by passing the sole act of the Catholic Association, the Catholic question, we may be carrying. it might deserve his eulogium. But when fear, and, for aught I know, discontent, find persons laying down principles of into another part. By such a step, the that kind at one moment, and conducting situation of the Protestants of Ireland themselves in direct opposition to those would in fact, be reversed. They are now principles at another, it is difficult to possessed of the ascendancy. That would speak of such inconsistency in any other be at an end. The very circumstance of language but that of disapprobation. With their inferiority in numbers would by no regard to the expression contained in that means tranquillize their minds; and if they address of "hatred to Orangemen," I have found that the Catholics, not content with been quite surprised to hear the attempts the acquisition of political, wished for rethat have been made by hon. gentlemen ligious power, and were anxious (which it to explain it away. The meaning of the is not impossible they might be) to overphrase was perfectly intelligible to the throw the existing church establishment persons to whom it was addressed; and to in Ireland such a discovery would natu say, that to hate Orangemen was merely rally create just uneasiness and alarm. I to declare that they were not partial to really, therefore, do not know any thing their oppressors, is a warping of the ex- more likely than that, if the Catholic pression, which, I repeat, surprised me question were carried, that system of assoexceedingly. It is said, that the address ciations, which seems so congenial to the to which I am now alluding, is peaceable country, and at all times so much to its in its character. But recollect how re- taste and fancy, would be carried to a cent it is. We all know what was the very great extent. Perhaps that extenlanguage antecedently held by the Asso- sion would originate with the Protestants; ciation. That language was not very but, no doubt, it would be followed by peaceable; nor were the acts by which it counter-associations on the part of the was accompanied very peaceable. I do Catholics. The different parties would not wish to remark harshly on the conduct thus become exasperated; and the same of individual members of the Association; violent prejudices, the same bitter aninor do I for a moment contend, that the mosities would exist that at present exist. violent language of Mr. O'Connell, or Dr. It would, therefore, be of all absurd policy Dromgoole, or any other person, is any the most absurd, to leave the associations reason why we should not do what is just in Ireland as they now are. and right. That violence would never pass the Catholic question to-morrow, I prevent me from voting for the Catholic think the peace and tranquillity, and safety question. But when we find violence, of Ireland, would require that parliament not only in words but in acts, manifested should pass an act, putting down associa by a body possessing so much power over tions in Ireland; which, under whatever the whole Catholic population of Ireland, pretence they may be formed, are always I cannot then help attributing great impor- an evil. So far am I, therefore, from contance to the circumstance. I cannot ceiving that the proposed bill will be inavoid seeing its inevitable danger; its ten- jurious to the Catholics, that, as their dency to excite great animosities and fears friend, I think the House would act most on the part of those against whom the unwisely and injuriously towards them feeling is shown, and to produce counter- were it to reject it. Sir, we have been associations, the manifold evils of which I told that the administration of justice in am sure I need not point out. Ireland is so bad, that the Catholics had no means of obtaining justice but by the

But then, Sir, we are told "Do but

Were we to

course which they have adopted. Instances have been mentioned of discovered abuses; but how were those abuses discovered? In this House. By committees of this House were they discovered, and by this House were they remedied. One of those evils was the choice of sheriffs. That has been remedied. The magistracy required revision. That has been revised. Other public bodies have been corrected. But all this has been done without the aid of a Catholic Association or parliament sitting in Dublin. It was done by the old fashioned English parliament here. That parliament has remedied many evils which existed in Ireland, and it will remedy others. I do not despair of the arrival of the day when even the grievance of the inequality of the Catholic condition will be remedied by parliament. But those persons are greatly mistaken who think that desirable event can be facilitated by suffering the existence of so formidable a body as the Catholic Association, agitating a people peculiarly apt to be urged by any sudden impulse; of a people whom they at one time tell to be quiet, and at another assert to be ready, at a word, to make all their swords fly from their scab bards [hear, hear!]. Sir, the parliament of England have endeavoured, by every means which could be devised, to consult the real good of Ireland. They have removed restriction after restriction, all but that particular one which is connected with the subject under consideration. For several years have parliament been so occupied. Much has been done. All admit that the present prosperity of Ireland is the result of the policy that has been pursued towards her. Therefore, Sir, although we may not have done every thing, we have done a great deal. We certainly do not want a Catholic Association to assist us. If they attempt to excite our fears, they will fail; for they will enlist our pride, at least as strong as any other feeling, against them. We shall betray our duty; we shall do mischief to Ireland; we shall render her incapable of enjoying the benefits which she has lately acquired, or which she may hereafter acquire, unless we make up our minds steadily and firmly to put an end to this Association, which I sincerely believe to be the bane and curse of the country. Mr. Hume observed, that so much had been elicited by that day's debate, that he did not think the subject was half exhausted. He should therefore move an adjournment.

Mr. Secretary Canning said, that although he was perfectly satisfied with the state of the question, and would have no objection to go instantly to a division, yet, as he should be sorry to preclude any hon. member from delivering his sentiments, he would not object to an adjournment, on the distinct understanding that the debate was to be resumed tomorrow, and was to take precedence of all other business.

The debate was further adjourned till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Tuesday, February 15.

ROMAN CATHOLIC ASSOCIATIONPETITION AGAINST.] Mr. Dickinson said, he held in his hand a petition to present from the archdeacon and clergy of the archdeaconry of Bath and Wells. The petitioners imputed to the church of Rome tyranny, superstition, and violence, and viewed with alarm any further concession to the Catholics, as pregnant with danger both to the established church and the constitution. They rejoiced that the attention of parliament had been drawn to the proceedings of the Catholic Association, and particularly that most dangerous feature in the conduct of the Association, the collection of a rent. He held in his hand a similar petition from the householders of Bath and its neighbourhood. The petitioners expressed themselves hostile to any further concession to the Catholics, and complained that insult and intimidation had been held out by the Catholics towards their Protestant fellow-subjects. He would merely state, that he fully concurred in the sen timents expressed. It was his firm opinion, that no administration could succeed in procuring for the Catholics what they demanded; so strongly was the sense of the bulk of the people of England opposed to it. For himself, he had quite made up his mind against any further concession upon that subject.

Sir T. Lethbridge said, it was his firm conviction, and in it he was joined by the great bulk of the people of England, that the Catholic question ought not to be conceded. When he spoke of the great bulk of the people, he meant not that portion which had been in that House described as low, and vile, and senseless, but men whose sentiments were entitled to the highest respect.

Sir M. W. Ridley was sorry to see a petition emanate from so respectable a body, couched in such language as the petitioners had thought fit to use. He Jamented that they should have allowed their feelings to have so far got the better of their judgment, as to have put their names to a petition framed in language so violent, intemperate, and unjust. How could they assert, that the Catholics of Ireland had insulted and ill-used their Protestant brethren? He certainly regretted some of the proceedings of their Association, not because they had done any injury to their Protestant fellowcountrymen, but because they were calculated to retard the progress of their

own cause.

Mr. Hutchinson said, he should abandon his duty to his country, and the empire at large, if he suffered so gross a libel to be presented, without protesting against its crying injustice. It was impossible for him to conceive a petition more fraught with falsehood, and more marked with indecent and unprovoked attack upon the Catholic population of Ireland. If petitions of this nature were to be presented, nothing but exasperation could ensue; and the consequence must be a scene of violence and religious animosity calculated to shake the kingdom to its foundation. He solemnly denied that the conduct of the Irish Catholics, either now or at any other time, had been marked by insult and ill-usage of their Protestant brethren.

of the people of this country was opposed
to any further concession. Such were
the decided wishes of his constituents;
and with them he concurred.
Ordered to lie on the table.

UNLAWFUL SOCIETIES IN IRELAND BILL.] The order of the day being read, for resuming the adjourned Debate on the motion made by Mr. Goulburn, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend certain Acts relating to Unlawful Societies in Ireland, "

Sir Robert Wilson said, he did not know that he should have taken an active part in the discussion before the House, had it not been for an assertion frequently made by hon. gentlemen opposite, and again strongly insisted on last night by the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer, whose candid and ingenuous manner gave to every thing advanced by him a peculiar degree of importance. That right hon. gentleman had repeated the assurance given by those who went before him, that the people of England were hostile, not only to the existence of the Catholic Association, but also to the more important and more extensive measure commonly called the Catholic Question. This assertion was of the utmost importance, with reference to the existing state of Ireland; and it behoved those who entertained a different opinion, and especially the representatives of popular places, not to content themselves with a silent vote, either of implied hostility or tacit acquiescence, but to stand forward, to put themselves pre-eminently before their constituents, and to submit their opinions and sentiments to the judgment of the House and of the public. The right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer had insisted, with an air of triumph, that none of the gentlemen on the opposition side of the House had ventured to assert the constitutional character of the Catholic Association. Neither was it his intention now to enter into the question, whether or not it was a constitutional body. But, the right hon. gentleman, and his majesty's Sir R. Heron defended the people of ministers, had no right to taunt them with England from the calumnious charge of their silence on the subject, because it being hostile to the Catholic concessions, was a subject which they had rendered and consequently enemies to civil and re- it impossible accurately to investigate. ligious liberty. He was convinced the Government ought to have laid on the great majority were most anxious to ren- table those papers and documents, which der justice to their Catholic fellow-sub-alone could elucidate the question. They jects. ought to have communicated the marquis Mr. Mansfield believed that the opinion Wellesley's dispatches respecting it. How

Mr. Dickinson denied that this petition contained libels or falsehoods. It was couched in firm and strong language, such as the occasion called for. As a proof that the Protestants of Ireland had been insulted, he would refer to the language used by Dr. Drumgoole, who had said, that the Protestant religion had had its time, and, like all other anomalies, would in a short time pass away.

Sir T. Lethbridge defended the sentiments of the Petitioners. It was high time to hold firm and strong language with respect to the demands of Roman Catholics.

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