friends of the measure-asked of him in return was, that he would now be good enough either to retire from his office, or to change his opinion again [hear, and a laugh]. The secretary for Ireland might say, indeed, that if there was any change of this kind, he could not go on. But the Attorney-general might reasonably, nay, gracefully, state, that he had exerted himself to the utmost in this cause, and in vindicating his own principles; but finding the sense of the country to be against him, he must in conscience retire. Something had been said by him (Mr. T.) about principles changing with office. He did assure the right hon. Home Secretary of State (Mr. Peel), that he meant no sort of allusion to him. He had pleasure in saying, that that right hon. gentleman's conduct had been always too manly and upright, and consistent, to subject him to any such imputation; he was an enemy to the question, but a consistent one. Gentlemen ought to look at the consequences of the measures they were pursuing, and not to suppose that the Catholics would be satisfied with this bill. The Catholics were offered, in 1821, what was considered to be conciliation. They were required to suffer under the grievances which the right hon. gentleman had described, and they were required to suffer under them with patience; and that was what the right hon. gentleman called conciliation. Unfortunately, they were not satisfied with such conciliation. What followed next? Why, they took their affairs into their own hands; and they thought, and he believed they thought justly, that by so doing they would produce some considerable effect. He was not prepared to defend the acts of the Catholic Association, but he thought great deliberation was required before this question was determined; for the prosperity of the whole country might be involved in this night's determination. The Catholics were no longer the body they had been in times past. This should be borne in mind by the advocates for the present measure. They had increased in population. They engrossed nearly all the manufactories and all the distilleries. The people concerned in those manufactories and distilleries were all in favour of Catholic emancipation; and they must naturally be expected to be so, as that was the only means they had of continuing and preserving these manufactories and distilleries. No man could doubt, that, in time, Ireland would assume a very commanding situation. She would then obtain what she required. The only difference would be, that what the parliament granted today as a boon, might be imperiously demanded and obtained as a right to-morrow. It had been observed, that the Catholics were not to be trusted-that they could not be depended on for keeping their faith. Now, he did not believe that assertion to be founded in fact. But, though the Catholics were at present well-disposed, it should never be forgotten that, like other men, they possessed feelings alive to insult and injury. If they were neglected too long, there was no saying what might be the consequence; and, if any evil should arise, it must not be imputed to them, so much as to that irritation which had been excited amongst them. Twenty-five thousand men might now march from one end of Ireland to the other, in spite of the army of thirty thousand rent collectors, headed by its two thousand five hundred priests; but, who could say that such would always be the case? If war should happen to come, great injury might arise to the empire, and that portion of it might be placed in positive jeopardy. In the event of war between this country and this country and a continental power, would not Ireland be considered a vulnerable point? If some disaffected paragraph should find its way into a newspaper-be circulated in foreign journals, and if a war should happen, might not the discontent of Spain at our recog nition of the independence of her colonies, induce her to return the obligation, by acknowledging the independence of Ireland? She might then, perhaps, become a separate and independent state; and one means of our strength, and one great source of our prosperity, would thus be cut off. Why, he would ask, should all that risk be incurred? Was it simply because six out of thirteen of the cabinet did not act exactly in the manner they ought. Let gentlemen well consider what would be the probable result of the measure now proposed. If it should happen to sour the temper of the people of Ireland, no one could say what, at the end of six months, might be the consequence. The right hon. and learned gentleman had said that he was ready to vote for Catholic emancipation whenever the hon. baronet should propose it. He might be so; but he could tell that right hon. and learned gentleman, that, in the present state of affairs, there was no chance of carrying it. That object could never be carried but by a government that was unanimous in its determination to carry it. Such a government, he knew, might be formed. If the right hon. and learned gentleman, and the others of his majesty's ministers, who voted with him on the question of the Catholic emancipation, would withdraw, a new government, he was certain, might be formed with the full approbation of the people of England. It had been said, that this country was never more indisposed than at the present time to grant Catholic emancipation. Now, he doubted that very much. He certainly saw "No Popery" chalked upon a few walls, but that was not the sense of the country. Education had extended, and with it a corresponding spirit of liberality, if, therefore, the right hon. gentlemen to whom he had alluded, would withdraw themselves from the government, the chancellor would not merely have to find one, but almost all the new ministers. He must find a new lord Privy Seal a president of the Councila first lord of the Admiralty-a chancellor of the Exchequer-a secretary for Foreign Affairs-a lord-lieutenant of Ireland-an attorney-general for Ireland-and a president of the Board of Control. He could as soon raise the dead as do all that. Then, let not right hon. gentlemen delude themselves by saying, that the measure could not be carried; for, if that were done, it could and would be carried, and carried triumphantly [loud cheering]. He would not vote for the measure now proposed he would not vote for any such measure without Catholic emancipation being first carried. He thought that investigation must take place at some time. It ought to be resorted to now, and, if it were, he was confident that the consequence would be the removal of grievances, and not the passing of new penal enactments [hear, hear!]. It being now half past one o'clock, Mr. Brougham moved "That the debate be now adjourned.” Upon this the House divided: Ayes 70. Noes 252. A second division took place on the motion, "That this House do now adjourn:" Ayes 76. Noes 231. The minority declaring their resolution to persist in dividing the House, it was agreed that the debate should be further adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, February 14. NAVY ESTIMATES.] The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply to which the Navy Estimates were referred, Sir George Clerk, in rising to move the Navy Estimates, observed, that it could scarcely be necessary for him to remark, that it was proper that we should have a portion of our naval force in every part of the world, more especially in the neighbourhood of our new foreign relations, in order to prevent inconveniences which might otherwise arise from the contending parties at war. In the West Indies, the nest of pirates on the coast of Cuba had been considerably diminished: yet we must not flatter ourselves that it was utterly destroyed, or that, if any relaxation in our efforts were to take place, it would not revive. There were other circumstances also which had added to the charges beyond the amount of last year, increase had been rendered necessary. In the course of that year material changes had been made in the mode of victualling the navy, for the purpose of adding to the comforts of the seamen. Amongst these was the abolition of banyan days, and an increase in a small degree of wages in con. sequence of a diminution in the usual allowance of grog. These changes, he believed every naval officer would pronounce advantageous. An excess of spirits had the effect of rendering the men quarrelsome, and of course increased the necessity for punishment. In order, however, that there should be no just ground of complaint, it had been determined, that the saving on rum should be paid to the men in the shape of an addition to their wages. It had been calculated that that saving would amount to about two shillings a man per month; and this addition had in consequence been made to all the seamen and petty officers, but not to the warrant or commissioned officers. A small addition had also been made to the pay of the men when on foreign stations. In order to carry these alterations into full effect, it was necessary that his majesty's government should have the sanction of that House; and the treasurer of the navy would shortly bring in a bill for that purpose. In the mean time, it was intended that the two shillings additional pay a month should be issued to the men, on the responsibility of government. The great increase in the price of provisions since last year, had rendered it necessary to increase the rate of victualling a shilling a man a month; making the whole increase three shillings a man a month. The rise in the price of other articles, particularly of iron which had increased 100 per cent, had also rendered it necessary to add two shillings a man a month to the vote for wear and tear. The hon. baronet concluded by moving, "That 29,000 men be employed for the Sea Service, for thirteen lunar months, from the 1st of January 1825, including 9,000 Royal Marines." granted for wages; 603,2001. for victuals. for the said 29,000 men." On the resolution, "That 320, 4501. be granted, for the wear and tear of the ships in which the said 29,000 men are to serve," Mr. Hume thought a more explicit account ought to be laid before the House of the expenditure of the former year, so that they might compare it with what was proposed for the present. They ought to be informed what was the amount of articles made use of, and what was the expense of wear and tear for each ship. Sir G. Cockburn said, the expense Sir J. Yorke was very desirous that the which might be incurred for wear and committee should know how far the sea- tear of vessels at sea was quite uncertain. men liked the exchange of a portion of The vote of last year having been found their grog for tea; which it seemed pro- short, 2s. a man additional was required bable they would consider as little better by the present vote, which, it was com→ than clover dust. Had any broils or disputed, would cover the deficiency. sentions taken place upon this diminution of the allowance of grog to the seamen ? He also thought that the doing away with the banyan days required some explanation. Sir J. Yorke observed, that the sweeping phrase of "wear and tear," meaning the wear of hulls, masts, and spars, and the tear of canvas, had been in use for many years. Now, he could see no reason why the commissioners at the dock-yards could not give a more detailed account of this sort of expenditure. They might state what had been the wear of hulls and masts, and the tear of sails, for any given period. He did not know why the particulars of this expenditure should be wrapped up in these old-fashioned words. Sir G. Cockburn said, that from all the naval stations, except one, the accounts with respect to the manner in which the change was received by the seamen, were most favourable; in fact, they cheered when it was announced to them. The distribution of tea had nothing to do with the seamen's grog. The portion of grog stopped from the men they were paid for Mr. Croker said, the wear and tear to its full value. This was done, because | included the consideration of the size of it was found that when men went into the ships, the service on which they were port without money, they were frequently to be employed for the current year, and induced to run away; whereas, by giving other matters of so high a political nature them a little pocket money, they were as to render it inexpedient to adopt the enabled to amuse themselves without being mode suggested. This vote of wear and liable to any such temptation. With re-tear was, in some degree, a vote of conspect to the banyan days having been done away with, that also had met with the approbation of the seamen. Before that arrangement took place, they were nominally allowed 6lbs of beef per week, while in reality they only received 4lbs, a quantity of flour being substituted for the remainder. Again they were allowed large quantities of pease, enough, in fact, to serve a hogstye, but they never ate them, and so that article, or at least its value, went into the pocket of the purser. Sir I. Coffin was surprised that his hon. friend should object to the new arrange ment, as he must be aware that grog was injurious to the men, and that they were paid for the quantity stopped from them. The resolution was agreed to: as was also a resolution, "That 923,6501. be fidence to government. The estimate of the last year was always made the foundation of the new estimate. But he doubted whether it would be very convenient to make public the scheme of our naval force all over the world; which would be the effect of making such a disclosure as had been alluded to. He submitted to the hon. member, whether, taking an enlarged view of the question, without any reference to the present pacific state of Europe, it would not be impolitic to disclose the state of our naval force. Mr. Maberly never before heard such an explanation given in that House. What did the hon. Secretary say? He stated, that this was a sum voted in confidence to his majesty's ministers. Now, he thought it really was a vote for wear and tear if so, why not produce a regular estimate? But the hon. Secretary said, there was something beyond that. ["No, no," from Mr. Croker.] More would not be expended than was absolutely necessary for wear and tear; and should there be any surplus, that was, he supposed, as this was a vote of confidence, to be disposed of as ministers thought fit. Mr. Maberly said, it was a complete annuity to become a freeman of Queenborough, for he was sure of getting one of these boats, to sail up and down the Thames, half-employed and half idle.. With respect to this vote, if every item was enumerated, a considerable saving might be effected. The resolution was agreed to. UNLAWFUL SOCIETIES IN IRELAND BILL.] The order of the day being read, for resuming the adjourned debate on Mr. Goulburn's motion, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend certain Acts relating to Unlawful Societies in Ireland," The Hon. George Lamb said, that the proposed measure, notwithstanding all the details connected with its provisions, which they had heard from time to time, still appeared to him to be exceedingly obscure and mysterious. It was, it seemed, intended to be an alteration of the Con Mr. Hume asked, what could be the danger of furnishing a detail of the wear and tear of the navy, when it was known that there was a person named Murray, who published a list which gave a detailed account of the amount and rate of our naval force, together with the station of each particular vessel? He wished for nothing which would in any way impede our service, or interfere with political subjects; but surely it was not too much to expect, that, when a large grant was to be voted, they should be furnished with those details, which were given in the ex-vention act which was passed in 1793. penditure of the army, and other branches of the public service. As to granting money in confidence, he protested against it. Where money was to be expended, he had no confidence in any man or set of men. The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "That 94,250l. be granted for Ordnance for Sea Service on board the ships in which the said 29,000 men are to serve," Mr. Hume said, he observed an item "for boats hired at Queenborough 23,000l." Now it was notorious, that, of the persons employed in these boats, 160 out of 190 were freemen of Queenborough. Queenborough, it should be observed, sent two members to parliament, who were returned by those persons. When 94,250l. was placed in one line, as the sum necessary, at 5s. per man, it looked as if every man in the fleet participated in it. Would it not be better to simplify the matter, and to state clearly the different heads of expenditure? Much as he admired the wisdom of our ancestors, he thought the experience of the moderns produced greater benefits. Formerly, votes of money were passed in complete confidence. Those who agreed to them could not say whether one half the amount was really called for. The case was now, however, altered. Sir G. Clerk said, that the sum proposed was found to be the lowest for which ordnance for the sea service could be supplied for the current year. Whether that act deserved all the censure be the means of creating animosities and heart-burnings, in different parts of the country, amongst those who followed different creeds of faith. What did the Attorney-general for Ireland tell them in that splendid speech which no one had heard with greater admiration than he had done? The right hon. and learned gentleman had said, "If this Association goes on, will not some disturber, some desperate adventurer, get among them, who, in the end, will force them over that precipice which they have prepared for themselves?" Such was the prospective reason given for the measure now contemplated. He did not mean to say that that Association did not deserve the vigilant attention of government, but he regretted the way in which that vigilance was manifested. The attorney-general ought to have observed their proceedings; and, the moment he found them over-stepping the bounds of law, he ought to have stood forward, and, armed with the strong power of the law, have forced them to acknowledge its authority. This was the proper way to put down any dangerous spirit. There certainly was no want of vigilance on the part of the right hon. and learned gentleman. He was vigilant too early: he indicted that which was not indictable; and, as in the rattle-and-bottle-assassination plot, he was defeated. Therefore the power of parliament was appealed to, when, in his (Mr. L.'s) opinion, such an application was wholly unnecessary. It had been urged, as the most excellent feature of this measure, that it was perfectly impartial-that it included both parties, the Orange societies as well as the Catholic Association. This point had been pressed, indeed, by the attorneygeneral for Ireland; but it was clear that the Secretary for Ireland considered it merely the fringe of the case-a matter hardly worth notice, and he would probably have taken his seat when he introduced the measure, had not his right hon. and learned friend called his attention to it. He (Mr. Lamb) would not pause to inquire whether a bill could be called impartial, which put on the same footing an Association unquestionably lawful and societies decidedly illegal, and denounced as such two sessions since, although subsequently perseveringly supported; but, referring to the debate on the motion of the hon. member for Calne, he could not help contrasting the language of ministers then as applied to the Orange lodges, and VOL. XII. the terms they now used with reference to the Catholic Association. What had the Secretary for Ireland stated two years ago?" He joined" said the report of his speech, with the hon. member in thinking, that every thing that could be done in the way of advice to the Orange lodges ought to be done. That was the proper method of attacking such institutions, that might eventually tend to excite alarm and apprehension; in fact, that was the only fit way to counteract the principles which led to their institution." * Yet these societies, which, according to the right hon. Secretary, "might eventually tend to excite alarm and apprehension," had been denounced by the chief law officer of Ireland as "a gang, bearding the king's government, as setting constituted authorities at defiance, and insulting and outraging the very person of the king's representative in Ireland." Such were the societies that were met with " all that could be done in the way of advice." He (Mr. L.) did not mean to complain that the same course had not been pursued in the present case, and that "all that could be done in the way of advice" had not been tried with the Catholic Association. Perhaps advice from the right hon. Secretary, an avowed enemy to the Catholic claims-would not have been most graciously received; but from the Attorney-general for Ireland, who had so justly boasted that he had long possessed, and still enjoyed, the confidence of the Catholics, it might have been accepted. Why he had not tried the experiment, or rather, why he had pursued a directly opposite course, and commenced legal process against one of the leaders of the Association, remained yet to be explained. Where, then, was the supposed impartiality of treatment, and where the impartiality of the bill recommended for adoption? When a bill had been formerly proposed, to declare Orange societies, and their secret oaths, illegal, the members of them were protected at the bar of the House. The witnesses shielded themselves under this illegal obligation, and refused to avow the truth, though commanded by the House; and, what was the result? They were allowed to retire from the bar, and were dismissed even without censure. It was quite impossible for him to guess at the feelings of the Orangemen, at the present moment; but he really thought that they had as much right to complain of this bill as the 2 A |