measures. If parliament set its wits against a people by a bill, was it not likely that they would devise every kind of stratagem to secure the object nearest their hearts. It was whispered already that the Catholic Association was dissolved; that it would meet no longer; publish no more proceedings and debates in the journals. Did the House believe that such a step would afford a better security for peace and union? His main objection to the proposed bill, however, was, that it was one of the outworks to defend the ancient Protestant monopoly in Ireland, against the just assaults of the Catholics. It was on that account that he had ventured to trespass so long upon the attention of the House, but he would now conclude, by giving his direct negative to what he conscientiously believed to be the most unjust, the most unfair, the most mischievous, and the most destructive measure, that had ever been proposed in parliament. The debate, at two in the morning, was adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, February 11. UNLAWFUL SOCIETIES IN IRELAND BILL.] On the order of the day being read for resuming the adjourned debate on Mr. Goulburn's motion, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to Amend certain Acts relating to Unlawful Societies in Ireland," Mr. C. Pelham addressed the House in a tone of voice which was inaudible in the gallery. He said, that although he was desirous of steering clear between both the parties principally involved in this discussion, yet he was averse to the introduction, in a time of profound peace, of any measure which had a tendency to restrict popular rights. Mr. Grattan declared it to be his conviction, that all the evils, even if true, which honourable gentlemen affected to apprehend from the existence of the Catholic Association, were to be attributed to the really unlawful societies which had so long existed in Ireland. The right hon. Secretary for the Home Department had last night stated, that if that Associa tion was not put down, counter societies would be formed. But, what was the fact? It was this that the Catholic Association was the counter society, and had been brought into action by the Orange insti tutions. It was not true that the As80ciation consisted exclusively of Roman Catholics. There were also Protestant members. He did not himself belong to it, because he could not justify all its proceedings; though much might be said to extenuate them, in consequence of the provocation they had received. The right hon. Secretary for Ireland had spoken of the prosecutions instituted by the Association, and of their general proceedings. But in fairness, the right hon. gentleman should not have omitted to say something of the conduct of the opposite party. When he spoke of the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy, did he not know that a clergyman of the Established church had been, for a long time, publishing in the Irish papers most furious attacks upon the Catholic body? In fact, it was the conduct of the opposite party that had given birth to the Association. They associated for self-defence; and he had no reason to think that their proceedings were mischievous. Their conduct was justified by the conduct of some of the clergy of the Established Church. Before such a measure as was now proposed was enacted, let the Association be heard by counsel at the bar of that House. It was his most solemn opinion, that if the present course was pursued, the greatest danger to the tranquillity of Ireland would be the result. It was worse than idle to speak of the impartiality of the measure. The bill was nothing less than an Orange bill-a declaration of war against the Roman Catholics. It came from the north of Ireland. He would not say the people of the north; for no man more highly valued the character of his northern countrymen; but it was hatched at Derry [hear, hear !]-and the united parliament was to be persuaded to mature it into life. It was because he regarded most sincerely the interests of the Protestants of Ireland, that he should oppose it; as he believed in his heart, it would operate hostilely to their interests and happiness. It would lead to a general jarring of parties, and to the exasperation of factions and religious strife. So strongly was he impressed with that feeling, that he conscientiously declared, that if he did not believe that, as a member of that House, he might be of some little service to his native country, he would gladly remain an exile from it for ever. Much had been said of plots. Catholic plots there certainly were none. There might be plots invented by some of the magistracy, who wished for the conse- | lic Association was a virtual representation quences that were likely to follow, in the of the Catholic population of Ireland. The shape of commissions in volunteer corps, right hon. Secretary of State for Foreign &c. What was called the interference of affairs contended, on the contrary, that the Catholic Association with the adminis- the Catholic Association was not a virtual tration of justice had also been complained representation of the Catholic population of. He would not say that the adminis- of Ireland: and maintained that it ought tration of justice in Ireland was not pure; to be put down on that ground. The term but he knew that there was a strong feel" virtual representation" had no meaning. ing among the peasantry of Ireland that It was a term coined in this country, at they could not obtain justice; and, con- the period of the American revolution. sequently, considerable satisfaction at any The Americans were told, that they were means which might yield them protection virtually represented in the English parand support. He was persuaded, that if liament. Their reply was, "we will be the proposed bill were passed, many per- really so." Finding some difficulty in unsons would be alienated from the country, derstanding the expression, they speedily and all speculation in it would at once be cut the Gordian knot, and had a parliaput an end to. It would prevent any dis- ment of their own. The right hon. Secreposition to reside in Ireland; and for him-tary wished to convince the people of self, he repeated, that rather than live in Ireland under that act, he would live in this or any other country. The wrongs of which Ireland had to complain were heavy and numerous. The union was one of them; and since the union nothing had been done for the people; who were kept down only by the bayonet. The expression in the declaration of the Catholic Association, invoking the Catholics "by their hatred to Orangemen," to him it appeared a very natural expression. The Catholics hated the Orangemen, because the Orangemen hated the Catholics. It was very well to say, that when you received a slap in the face you ought to turn the other cheek; but who in the world did so? What were the mild names by which the members of the Catholic Association were called by the organs of the Orange party? Demagogues, arch fiends, rebels. The vituperation of the Orange press in Ireland was boundless; and it might give the House some notion of the state of that press, to be told, that while "The Dublin Mail," "The Antidote," and "The Star," newspapers were prosecuted by one part of the Irish government, they were supported by the other. Captain Maberly declared, that he viewed with the deepest regret-no, not regret-with the deepest indignation, the introduction of the proposed bill. He charged his majesty's ministers with bringing forward this most ruinous measure on the flimsiest pretexts. Notoriety was said to be its basis. Notoriety! when even those who supported the proposition were not agreed as to the facts on which they pretended to found it. The right hon. Secretary for Ireland said, that the Catho England, that the Catholic Association affected to adopt modes of proceeding similar to those of the British parliament; but, that was by no means the case. They had a president, undoubtedly; because, without some head, their proceedings could not be conducted; but there the. analogy dropped. All their other forms were modelled with a regard to convenience and to the despatch of business. They had divisions, and subdivisions of their body; because the body at large could not get through the business so satisfactorily and effectually. His majesty's ministers were very desirous to put down the Catholic Association. Let them put it down as they liked, it would not fail to appear in some other shape. When the Convention act was passed, it failed in its effect. It was successfully evaded. How could it be supposed, that what took place on that occasion would not take place on the present occasion? Ministers deceived themselves if they thought the contrary. Every possible manœuvre would be resorted to, to defeat the measure. The adversaries of the Catholics in the cabinet, forgot that their heavyarmed troops would have to combat with a light active enemy in the Catholic Association. If the existing Catholic Association were put down, Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Shiell, and a reporter, would make a Catholic Association of themselves. An attempt had been made to compare the Catholic Association with the Constitu tional Association, which had recently existed in this country. They' were wholly dissimilar. The Constitutional Association was established expressly for the purpose of instituting prosecutions; a purpose altogether indefensible; as indi-minds that the Orangemen wished to create viduals were placed under circumstances of considerable disadvantage, when contending with an irresponsible body. The state of Ireland was not such as to require any measure like that under consideration. He had lately visited that country; and, in the parts which he had seen, there appeared to prevail the utmost tranquillity and submission to the law. There were no murders; no plunderings; no burnings. The rents were regularly paid; nay, the arrears of rent were paid; and, what was still more, the people were anxious to obtain leases; a strong proof, that nothing like disturbance was expected; for every one who knew Ireland, knew, that when disturbance was expected, the peasantry abstained from applying for leases, trusting rather to the chapter of accidents. But, while he complained of the proposition which was now before the House, he was disposed to give his majesty's ministers credit for a part of the measures which they had adopted with regard to Ireland. The Tithe Commutation act was certainly a good measure. The Insurrection act had had a most salutary effect. He was bound also in candour to acknowledge, that the Police act had been attended with beneficial consequences. But then he must say, that the course of proceedings which they had adopted, required a most active and vigilant control. It had all the inconveniences of a military system, without the effective discipline which such a system insured. Nor could any man doubt that the Catholic Associa tion had greatly contributed to produce the tranquillity at present existing in Ireland. No man could read the eloquent address of the Catholic Association to the Catholic population of Ireland, without feeling that it must produce a powerful effect. Issuing, as it did, through their priests, for whom they cherished the greatest veneration, that effect would necessarily be much increased. Nor could he view with the detestation which had been expressed by others, the expression of hatred to Orangemen which that declaration contained. It was used as an inducement to the Catholics to maintain the existing tranquillity, which it was believed the Orangemen were disposed to violate, with a view to such ulterior measures as the present. While he was in Dublin, and in communication with a number of Catholic gentlemen, he found that a strong impression existed in their insurrection in Ireland. With this im- from personal observation, fully able to corroborate. Almost the whole of the south of Ireland had been converted into a scene of outrage and disorder, by the young crusaders who went from this country upon a Bible mission to Ireland. Cork, Waterford, Kilkenny, Clonmel and Carlow, had been thrown into a state of the utmost confusion by the discussions introduced between those persons and the Roman Catholic priests. They were opposed by the priests; because it was felt, that whilst they had education in their mouths, they had proselytism in their hearts. This system of disputation carried dissention and disunion throughout Ireland; for it was found that those families of respectability who took a part in favour of the Bible meetings became detested; they lost their influence in their neighbourhood, and were totally unable to control or manage the peasantry. Before he concluded, he begged to read to the House an extract from an account of the proceedings which took place at a disputation between the Bible missionaries and the Roman Catholic priests, which took place in the town of Carlow. It was as follows: "Mr. M'Sweeny: I choose to personate a Socinian: how will you convince, on your own principles, of the divinity of the Saviour Meus Pater est major me'my father is greater than I. How do you explain that? "Mr. Pope: by fair and legitimate reason. If the Redeemer be declared God in very many passages, as I have shewn you this morning that he is, then we must look for some explanation of the passages, that will not militate against them. I inquire, is there any verse in which the Saviour was inferior to the Father without compromising his essential divinity? The answer is obvious-in his mediatorial office and in his human nature. This, then is the explanation I would give-Christ, while one with the Father, and equal to him in his Godhead, is inferior to the Father in his mediatorial capacity and in his manhood. "Mr. McSweeny replied: That will not do, Sir; you have proved nothing; you have given an explanation that may satisfy yourself of there being nothing in the passage inconsistent with the Father, considered as to his divine nature. "Mr. Pope said: I don't know what the gentleman means by proving nothing. "Mr. M'Sweeny: The Father is greater than me!' You have not, Sir, explained this text, so as to satisfy a Socinian, though you spoke for three hours and a half, and during your speech you wandered considerably from the subject. "Mr. Pope: I certainly did speak for a long time, but I deny that I wandered. from the subject [this was followed by loud cries of No, no! Answer the question now."] "Mr. Daly: Mr. Pope has answered the question. I appeal to you all if this is not fair play. Should he not answer the question now? You are all honest Irish fellows, and I am sure like fair play. "Mr. M'Sweeny: I will refer to the chairman whether you answered the question or not. "Colonel Rochfort: I must decline giving any opinion upon this subject [Bravo! bravo! and loud cheers]. "A gentleman here said- From the feeling which has been manifested, I think the meeting ought to adjourn for the present.' The scene of tumult that followed this lasted for several minutes. The chairman endeavoured to calm the meeting. The rev. Mr. Shaw endeavoured to address the meeting. It appeared to be the intention of the mob not only to prevent the rev. gentleınan from being heard, but to proceed to acts of personal violence against the Protestant clergy assembled on the platform. With this view the temporary barriers were thrown down, several of the candles extinguished, and a scene of riot and confusion took place, the most disgusting and disgraceful. The doors of the chapel had been closed, and and the violent knockings and yells of those without, contributed not a little to the horror of the scene. The officer commanding the police intimated to the clergy of the Established Church, that from information of which he was in possession, as well as his own personal observation, he could not undertake to be answerable for their lives, unless they immediately retired. The rev. Mr. Winfield, Daly, Pope, and Jamieson, were obliged scale a wall eight feet high, whereby they escaped the insults and attacks of an infuriate rabble. The meeting was adjourned, sine die. to "The rev. Mr. O'Connell then ascended the pulpit and gave thanks to God for the triumph that had been achieved; and also to colonel Rochfort for the manner in which he had contributed to it." amounted to a large sum, they were pointed out as factious persons, opposed to the laws, and determined to make inroads upon the constitution by storm. He cautioned ministers to be circumspect upon the present occasion; for it was his firm belief, that if they passed this measure, without ameliorating the political condition of the great body of the people, they would spread insurrection and dismay throughout the country. If the House consented to such a measure, they must make up their minds to deprive the Roman Catholics of their property, and, Cromwelllike, drive them into one corner of Ireland: they must do this, or at once grant them an equal participation in the rights and privileges enjoyed by their Protestant fellow-subjects. They might now grant this as a matter of justice; if they refused it, a time might come when it would be exacted from them by a sanguinary rebellion. Sir N. Colthurst said, he could not give his consent to the continuance of an Association, whose objects were inconsistent with the constitution, and incompatible with the well-being of Ireland. He was ready to make every fair allowance for that effervescence of feeling and expression, which frequently occurred at such meetings; but, when he found in the Catholic Association a systematic inter This was a specimen of the effects produced by the efforts of those who went over to Ireland for the purpose of educating, and giving religious instruction to the Catholic population of Ireland. He would ask the House, whether they were in possession of any grounds sufficient to warrant them in adopting the proposed measure? He had himself attended a meeting of the Catholic Association in Dublin, and had heard a discussion carried on with temper. At that time the Catholic Rent was from 40l. to 50l. a week. In the course of three months, the rent amounted to about 400l. per week. In the mean time, however, the Bible discussions had taken place; the people became irritated, the priests engaged in the discussions; they interested themselves in the subscription; the peasantry followed their example; and the consequence was, that the Catholic rent now amounted to about 1000l. per week. This being the case, was not the hon. baronet right in stating that the increase of the Catholic rent was owing to the acts of the Bible Society and to the attacks in "The Courier," which followed hard upon them? There was another ground of alarm. Were they not to take into their consideration the high expectations with which the lower and middling classes of society regarded the efforts of the Catholic Association. What, then, must be their feel-ference with the administration of justice ings, when they found that their most sanguine expectations was to be disappointed. The House was called upon to legislate in the dark. It was extremely injudicious on the part of ministers to introduce a question of such vital importance, without laying before parliament such information as would enable them to judge of its expediency. He, for one, looked upon the Catholic Association as a body whose efforts had the effect of injuring the cause they advocated; and whose proceedings would have the effect of intimidating many persons in England. He felt that every step taken by the Association in Ireland tended to retard their cause in England. But he must say, that though he could not justify the proceedings of that body, there was much to excuse and extenuate in their conduct. They had been for a long time abused and hardly dealt with. When their numbers were few, and their subscriptions were small, they were told that they did not possess the confidence of the people; and when their numbers increased, and the rent in Ireland-when he found that they called upon the people to confide in them, and had formed a tribunal to which they invited every grievance, real or imaginary when he found that they proceeded to levy money upon the people, and used the most despotic means for its collection, even to the extent of denouncing those who refused to pay it-when he found all this, he felt it his bounden duty to give his vote in favour of a measure calculated to suppress such an Association. He had been informed, that a respectable gentleman, residing in the south of Ireland, had cautioned his tenantry not to pay any money towards the Catholic rent. In a short time, he received a letter from the parish priest couched nearly in the following terms: "Dear Sir; It has been reported to me that you have cautioned your tenants against contributing to the Catholic rent. I know that this report is without foundation; yet, as it has had the effect of decreasing the rent in this quarter, I hope you will allow me to contradict it, particularly as I am obliged |