which have adopted proceedings irreconcileable with the spirit of the constitution, and calculated, by exciting alarm, and by exasperating animosities, to endanger the peace of society, and to retard the course of national improvement." Now, there was nothing here to warrant haste on the part of the ministry, nor did his majesty recommend the hasty adoption of any measure: the words were" His majesty relies upon your wisdom to consider without delay, the means of applying a remedy to this evil." Now, he knew no means of applying a remedy to an evil better than by inquiring what the nature of it was. A noble lord said, "Let us hear what is the nature of the evil in Ireland." To which the noble earl replied, "Yes you shall hear it, but it shall be from my own mouth." There was, certainly, to use a term which had been well applied elsewhere, something "serpentine" in this part of the Speech. On the one hand, there was a recommendation of inquiry, and on the other hand an allegation of the existence of certain evils. Let the House have all the information that was to be had on the subject; for surely it would not be treating the people on the other side of the water well to recommend the adoption of some measure, without first letting the House know what that measure was. But before discussing the necessity of removing any danger, it might be right to see if any danger existed. Let them look at the passage upon this subject in his majesty's Speech:-"It is therefore the more to be regretted, that Associations should exist in Ireland which have adopted proceedings irreconcileable with the spirit of the constitution, and calculated by exciting alarm, and by exasperating animosities, to endanger the peace of society, and to retard the course of national improvement." Now, when he read this passage, he looked round him to see what this Association was; and it struck him that it was the Irish cabinet. That, indeed, was an Association contrary to the spirit of the constitution of this country; for it was formed upon a system of disunion and counteraction, which might be seen in every one of its measures, and which was only equalled in this respect by the English cabinet. It now seemed that the spirit of compromise which pervaded the acts of this cabinet ran further, and found its way into the King's Speech. It was marked by the greatest inconsistencies, like the conduct of the Attorney-general L of the 33rd of the king was preceded by the 29th of the king, which conferred upon the Catholics almost the only privileges which they enjoyed. He was glad that his majesty had not himself delivered this Speech, in which he had been advised to mark out by name this Association. He contended, that the nature of his noble friend's motion was mistaken. The question was not whether or not the alleged grievance required a remedy; still less was it, whether it was to be remedied in a particular mode; but the question before their lordships was, whether they were to proceed to the adoption of an important measure with or without information on the subject? It might be said, they had the King's Speech. He admitted they had; but first, he would consider that paragraph of it which referred to Ireland. He had read that paragraph over and over again, and still he knew not how to understand it. It began by saying, that the Irish were more prosperous and industrious than ever, and then it stated, that Associations existed in that country, which were an evil that called for a remedy. Now, if the noble earl meant that no information should be afforded to the House until after the remedy was brought forward, why recommend an inquiry? Sure, after the remedy was adopted, their lordships might then go into the inquiry! "This motion," said the noble earl is unparliamentary-Why, before you have a bill introduced, will you inquire whether you want a bill or not?" He now came to the only information they had upon the subject; namely, the King's Speech; and even according to that, if any measure were to be adopted upon it, it ought not to be adopted rashly; for it was stated in that Speech, that the condition of Ireland was prosperous, therefore there was full time for inquiry. But, what was said of the evil? With their lordships' permission he would read the whole of that part of the Speech. "It is no small addition to the gratification of his majesty, that Ireland is participating in the general prosperity. The outrages for the suppression of which extraordinary powers were confided to his majesty, have so far ceased as to warrant the suspension of the exercise of those powers in most of the districts heretofore disturbed. Industry and commercial enterprise are extending themselves in that part of the united kingdom. It is, therefore, the more to be regretted that Associations should exist in Ireland VOL. XII. conjured them, as they valued the safety of the empire-he conjured them, as they valued the liberties of their fellow-subjects of Ireland, who ran into the opposite extremes, and cried "Crom-a-boo," and "Butler-a-boo" also. Could any thing be more likely to perpetuate the animosi--he conjured them, as they valued the ties alluded to than this? It pervaded not only the actions of ministers, but the Speech of his majesty to that House. The serpentine line pervaded every part of it -"Penitusque in viscera lapsum Serpentis furiale malum, totamque pererrat." The real question before their lordships was, whether or not, when they were called on from the throne to legislate on evils said to exist in Ireland, they were to do so in the dark? The evils here described were, exciting alarm and exasperating animosities, and thereby endangering the peace of society, and retarding the prosperity of the country. Now, the line of conduct adopted by the government seemed to him to be exactly calculated to keep up these animosities, until one of the parties at length carried its object by force; for he could not help thinking the present measure the most impolitic that ever was proposed. When the Convention act was passed in Ireland, that great and good man, Mr. Grattan (the greatest and the best his country ever produced), called it an act for the gratification of spleen. That act empowered a magistrate to dissolve any assembly, and take the Speaker's chair away, and turn him out of doors, save and except the knights, burgesses, and citizens in parliament assembled (which saving clause, by the way, did not save them, for they shortly afterwards ceased to sit), and save and except the congregation of a church. Now they (the House of Lords), in framing a similar act at present, must draw up a clause, saving and excepting his majesty's cabinet of ministers, and those councils to be summoned for the advice of his majesty-He had, perhaps, trespassed too long upon the attention of the House, considering the narrow grounds on which the question before their lordships rested. If they took the necessity of any measure for granted without receiving any information respecting it, contrary to all custom, and all reason, such a measure, when adopted would have the character of passion or of servility, and not the character of justice. If the necessity did exist, where so many millions were to be affected by the measure, it was, indeed, a frightful necessity, still their lordships were bound to obey it; but he character of the laws of this countrynot to have recourse, without full and substantiated evidence of that necessity, to so baneful and disgusting a measure. Earl Bathurst said, his noble friend had not contended for the proposed measure, except upon such public information as would leave no doubt of its necessity. He, however, must despair of the vote of the noble baron opposite, if, looking to the spirit of the proceedings of the Catholic Association in Ireland, he did not consider it essential to the tranquillity of that country that such an Association should not be permitted to exist. His noble friend had stated, that he would not be drawn into a premature discussion of the means by which associations were to be put down. When the bill should be brought forward, their lordships would have an opportunity of judging whether the means suggested were adequate to the end proposed on the one hand, or trenched too much on the liberty of the subject on the other. The individual who was to bring forward this bill was the secretary for Ireland. It was, therefore, to be considered strictly as an Irish measure, recommended by the government of Ireland. The Earl of Carnarvon stated, that he was surprised that the noble lord on the other side should oppose the motion, after so many things had been brought forward by his majesty's ministers, which they were pleased to call statements; though he could not find that any thing had been stated. The noble lord refused them information, although he wished to persuade them that there existed in Ireland something dangerous to the constitution, and that it was that something that had induced them to put into his majesty's Speech words for the purpose of inducing the House to adopt measures likely to trench on the liberty of the subject. In what a situation were they placed by the noble lords? For his own part, he supposed, that as the cabinet was made up of members of very diversified opinions, so, in type of the disarrangement contained therein, the Speech had been organized by each putting in a sentence, some of which were contradictory of others, and the address that had been returned in answer to the Speech, was, as usual, an echo of what it contained. To that address he 20. The lords then divided; for the motion motion, 22. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, February 8. had said Not-content, and he had done | of the cabinet, was the unanimity of the so, because it did not pledge them to people of Ireland. They had reason to make every inquiry, and give his majesty apprehend much from the harmony, the such advice as they might think essential unprecedented concord, of the Catholics; to the safety of the kingdom, but pledged and, when they talked of the dangerous them to adopt measures for the remedy of acts of this body, they ought to be told, an evil with which they were not to be that the most dangerous acts which could made acquainted. And then they were be committed, were those of passing told, that it was no business of theirs; that measures of severity, without exhibiting they were to gather their information to the world the facts that would justify from another place; that they were to them. He should give his support to the wander on in the dark. To the address, motion. therefore, he had not given his consent, as he considered the pledge that it contained a rash one. For even if they were to receive any light on the subject, whence was it to come? Was the bill that should be sent up to them from the House of Commons to be their only source of information? Were their lordships to say Content or Not-content, without asking for further information, or exercising their own judgment? Were they to proceed in this way, upon such a measure as this, when they would require evidence before them in support of the most unimportant private bill? The noble earl said, that all the information was to be derived from the newspapers; and in the same breath he stated, that the proposed measure was to be founded on the despatches received from the lord lieutenant of Ireland, and not on the notoriety of the circumstances which called for it. The ministers said to the House," We act on despatches; the newspapers are enough for you." Why not give the facts, and the reasons on which the Irish government asked for this step? If a rebellion or conspiracy was to be put down-if captain Rock was in the field-then would they have loaded the table with documents. But Ireland was now tranquil. The people had appealed to the laws. By their peaceable and constitutional conduct they had disconcerted the cabinet. But, was it really true, that this information was withheld from a feeling, on the part of the noble earl at the head of the law department, that no bill could be framed to meet the exigency of the case? Was this the true cause of this reserve? It was quite wonderful that the usual topics of declamation should no longer find a supporter amongst them. Strange that their lordships should hear nothing of "steady loyalty," and "rallying about the throne"-topics which used to be so eagerly seized upon by the noble lords opposite, upon occasions such as this. The real cause of fear on the part USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.] Mr. Serjeant Onslow rose, in pursuance of notice, to submit to the consideration of the House, a subject which, in the course of the last session, had met with considerable support, the numbers in favour of the second reading of the measure being 120, and the amendment having only had the support of 23 hon. members. Recollecting the manner in which the Speech from the throne had approved of those liberal measures which the House had adopted, respecting free trade; recollecting the unanimous address of the House favouring the removal of all those absurd restrictions which had been heaped upon commerce, he could not but anticipate, in favour of his proposition, the strongest support. If ever there was a system of laws founded, he would not say in bad policy, but in no policy at all, it was the system of regulations respecting usury. But he had so often had occasion to enter into arguments on the subject, that he thought it unnecessary to fatigue the House at present. In the course of the discussion last year, no objection had been made to the principle of the measure, but they had heard many predictions of the evil consequences likely to arise therefrom. Now, in the first place, he would take leave to say, that the fear of some inconveniences was no answer to his argument. In legislation, we must look at the greater and the lesser evil; and it appeared to him, that there never was a period more suitable for such an alteration in the law as he proposed, than the present. No one could deduce an objection from the present state of the money market. Many contended that no alteration ought to be made, because at present the law was inoperative; but, it seemed to him much wiser to make the change now, than to defer the improvement to a period of difficulty and danger. The learned serjeant then entered into the further objections urged against his measure, and concluded by moving, for leave to bring in a bill "to repeal the laws prohibiting the taking of Interest for Money, or limiting the rate thereof." Mr. Davenport opposed the motion, on the ground that it would involve the landed interest in ruin; and expressed his determination to take the sense of the House upon it. were so numerous. He would hold by the old laws, and would even propose to enact them, if they did not exist, in consequence of the numerous speculations now abroad, which were such as to stagger credibility. If he was rightly informed, these speculations would require a capital of 160 millions to carry them into effect. Mr. Serjeant Onslow considered the argument just advanced by the hon. member for Cumberland, to be the most extraordinary of all he had ever heard in support of the usury laws. If the hon. member for Cheshire thought fit to take the sense of the House upon his motion, it was, though not very courteous, certainly parliamentary for him to do so. The House then divided; for the motion 52. Against it 45. Majority, 7. - Mr. John Smith expressed his regret at the disposition he perceived to resist the introduction of this very beneficial measure. It was certainly in the hon. member's power to do so, though the practice COUNTY COURTS SMALL DEBTS was now extremely rare. Indeed, he BILL.] Lord Althorp, rose to move for looked upon this species of opposition as leave to bring in a bill, "for preventing a triumphant proof of the excellence of delays and expenses in the proceedings his learned friend's bill, which had been of County Courts, and for the more easy supported by arguments which he had and speedy Recovery of Small Debts in never heard answered. He trusted that England and Wales." He observed, that his hon. and learned friend would not after the former discussions on the principursue the course which he did last year. ple of the proposed measure, it was not That course he spoke it without the necessary to enter into any details, as the slightest intention to blame his hon. and bill he should have the honour to introlearned friend-had led to the ultimate duce, was precisely the same as that of defeat of his bill. His hon. and learned last year, with one exception. It was in friend had deferred his measure, not once the recollection of the House, that the or twice, but a dozen times at least, to reason of the rejection of that bill was, meet the convenience of the gentlemen that it did not provide compensation for who opposed it; and the result of his the sinecure offices. It certainly was his conciliatory conduct had been, that they individual opinion then, that such officers had assembled one night, when no dis- should not be compensated, and that concussion was expected, in numbers suffici-viction he still entertained. As, however, ent to throw it out. He hoped that if his hon. and learned friend carried his motion that night, he would bring forward the second reading of his bill on a very early day, when there was certain to be a full attendance of members. He was convinced that the opposition which was threatened by the landed interest, originated entirely in mistaken notions on the subject. Mr. Curwen said, that he was one of those who had invariably opposed the measure, and with his views upon the question he did not think that he should have performed his duty if he had not stated, and acted upon, his sentiments. He thought that the present was a most injudicious period for bringing forward the subject, when the money market was so overstocked, and speculative theories the want of such a provision hazarded the passing of the bill, and as he felt that the value of the principle was more than an equivalent for the exception, he should introduce a clause granting such compensation. He should, however, propose the appointment of a select committee, with the view of ascertaining how many officers were entitled to compensation, and he believed that the inquiry would prove that the number was smaller than was apprehended.-Leave was given to bring in the bill. IRISH MARRIAGE ACTS.] Dr. Lushington rose to move for the copy of a committal of four persons to the gaol of Londonderry, on an alleged violation of the Irish Marriage Acts. It appeared, from the statement of the circumstances which had been given to him, and which he had every reason to believe correct in all the main facts, that two men, professing the Popish religion, were married by a Roman Catholic clergyman to two females of the Church of Scotland, Presbyterians. On that event taking place, it so happened, that an information had been laid before certain magistrates of the county of Londonderry. On the receipt of such information, they issued summonses to the four married persons, and called upon them to give evidence as to the Catholic clergyman who married them. They refused, and were committed to the common gaol, there to remain for three years without bail or mainprize. In that prison the husbands and wives were kept apart. That, at least, was no part of the statute. The only offence, it would be recollected, of which these husbands and wives were guilty, was, that they refused to give evidence of what the law called the illegality of the celebration of the marriage, and refused to betray the clergyman whom they solicited to perform a certain act. He held in his hand an abstract of the various statutes passed, from time to time, by the parliament of Ireland, to prevent the intermarriage of Protestants and Catholics, through the intervention of a clergyman of the latter persuasion, Such a catalogue was a melancholy illustration of the merciless spirit which actuated the legislature in that country. It shewed the object at which they aimed, and that they were actuated by no regard, whether or not the principles of justice and of law stood in their way. Such a violation they disregarded, as well as the feelings and natural disaffection of those persons on whom these laws were to operate. Though the severity of those very enactments was calculated to render them inoperative, the men who acted under such a spirit of legislation were never awakened to the real evil. Severity followed severity, and each succeeding act exceeded the other in the malignity of its provisions. The act of the 8th of Anne made the celebration of a marriage by a Catholic clergyman, between a Catholic and a Protestant, a capital felony; and in order to secure a conviction, it presumed, that the mere fact of one of the parties so married being a Protestant, was competent evidence against the Roman Catholic priest, that he knew it. In all our penal statutes and every enlightened man regretted their number-be was convinced it was impossible to adduce one where the first principles of justice were so violated, and where that great dictate of morals and law was so sacrificed; namely, that innocence was to be presumed until guilt was proved. Mark the preamble of theact of 12th Geo. 1st, which made the crime a capital felony. One would have supposed that some crying evil, called for such an enactment. No such thing. An act, that thus created a capital felony, satisfied itself with merely declaring, that it was necessary to prevent these clandestine marriages in consequence of the inconvenience which they produced to private families. Nay, more. The magistrates were empowered, if they but suspected that such a clandestine marriage was celebrated, to summon the parties before them, examine them on oath, and in the event of their refusal to give evidence against the clergyman, or to be bound in special recognizances, to commit them for three years to gaol, without bail or mainprize. The last act, that of 1793, voided the marriage thus celebrated, and imposed a fine on the clergyman of 500l. A difference of legal opinion existed in Ireland, whether by this act the former Marriage acts were repealed or not. If they were not repealed, there arose the anomaly, that the clergyman might be hanged by one act, and afterwards fined 500l. by another. It became the bounden duty of that House to prevent such odious and repugnant occurrences, as that to which his present motion referred. With that view, he had felt it his duty to bring forward the subject and to move for the production of a copy of the committal of the imprisoned parties. He was most glad to be the humble instrument of providing against the repetition of such enormities, and of taking care that the sacred institution of marriage, in which were involved the dearest blessings of humanity, was no longer perverted into a source of national disquietude and party exasperation. The learned gentleman concluded with moving for the "copy of the committal in November, 1824. of W. Quigley, J. Kyle, F. O. Kane; Anne and Martha Loudin, to the gaol of Londonderry." Sir G. Hill did not rise to oppose the motion, nor yet to discuss the policy of those statutes, which made it highly penal for a Popish priest, to celebrate marriage between Protestants and Roman Catholics. They might be too severe; they might afford doubts respecting the extent |