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derstood, stated on the next day by a right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson), that an inquiry would be instituted on the subject. If such a course had been taken, he wished the result to be stated to the House; as it was important that they should have correct information with respect to the making up of those corn averages. He was not in the House on a former occasion, when some conversa tion had taken place relative to Mr. Peto. He now wished to say, that he had communicated with that individual on a work of considerable extent, and in its execution he had shown great skill and despatch. He had not, on that occasion, done any thing derogatory to the character of a man of honour. He felt it necessary to bear this testimony, which he could do most conscientiously, as to what he knew of Mr. Peto in this particular transaction.

Mr. Huskisson said, he had called on the inspector of corn returns to investigate the subject to which the hon. member had referred, and which was one of great importance; but he had not, up to the present moment, received the report of that individual. As the names of most respectable persons had been mentioned, it was proper that the business should be explained.

Alderman Wood inquired, whether any legal proceedings had been instituted by the Treasury against Mr. Peto, for not performing his contract? That individual had been very much alarmed and injured by a statement which had gone forth, that his property had been seized, under an extent from the Crown; and he wished it to be clearly understood whether there was any foundation for that report.

Mr. Herries said, there was no truth in the statement: no legal proceedings what ever had been instituted.

IRISH MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.] On the resolution, "That 27,871. be granted to defray the expenses of the Roads and Harbours of Holyhead and Howth, during the year 1825,"

Mr. Hume said, he should be glad to know how much more would be required for this purpose? Year after year similar sums were voted. He advised that a survey should be made, to ascertain what would be the final expenditure.

Mr. Herries could assure the hon. member, that the greatest care was taken that the money voted for this purpose

should be properly expended. The works were under the direction of commissioners duly qualified. He was happy to add, that although the present was not the last grant which it would be necessary to propose, that there was every reason to believe that one or two more would be sufficient. It was not impossible but that the grant of next year would close the whole expense.

Mr. Hume said, that in looking over the items in the amount furnished, he thought it doubtful how far economy was attended to by the commissioners in all their charges. He thought that, after the many grants that were made, it was now time to stop. He found a charge of 34,135. for widening a part of the road from Chester to Bangor. He found another charge of 1,4071. for parliamentary fees and solicitor's charges, for passing an act of parliament, constituting the commissioners. If so much was paid for an act of parliament, it was right to inquire what was done. He found another charge of 5,000l. for engineering and surveying, although in another part there was a charge of 1987. for surveying part of the road. He found among other charges for the salaries and expense of officers, one of 400l. a-year for salary for a secretary. What most struck his attention was the charge of 1,4001. for passing a bill, of which he did not hear a word in the House.

Sir H. Parnell said, that the act of parliament to which the hon. gentleman referred, had been passed for the purpose of consolidating three commissions; that of Holyhead harbour, Howth harbour, and Holyhead roads. Every gentleman who passed a bill through that House must know, that for every separate head it contained, a distinct fee was charged. The bill in question contained provisions for two harbours, and for the road from Holyhead to London, which of course increased the expense; but nothing was done that was not quite customary. As to the expense of the establishment, it would not appear great, if the hon. gen tleman would recollect the extent of the labours which the commission had to per form. They had the superintendance of the whole line of road from London to Holyhead, a distance of 260 miles; they had to superintend the erection of two suspension bridges; and they had also to superintend the formation of two harbours. There were no less than twenty-five con

tracts in operation, to which they were obliged to attend: and he maintained, that the charges were as moderate as, from the nature of the work, they could be. No grant had been made for the main line of road through Wales during the last two years; and, in his opinion, 30,000l. was not too much for insuring a proper communication between England and Ireland.

those safeguards which they enjoyed under the regulations by which private bills were governed. Besides, as the original act was a private act, it was necessary that the act to amend it should also be a private measure. No blame could therefore be attached either to the solicitor or the commissioners. The hon. gentleman bore testimony to the zeal with which sir H. Parnell had attended to these great works, and concluded by describing them as highly worthy the approbation of parThe resolution was agreed to.

EMIGRATION FROM IRELAND TO THE CANADAS.] On the resolution, "That 30,000l. be granted, for facilitating Emigration from the South of Ireland to the Canadas, for the year 1825,"

Mr. Hume hoped, that the vote would not be brought forward that night, as the attendance of members was so thin. He should resist the proposal in every way.

Mr. Calcraft could not understand, when they voted public money for a public purpose, how the bill for the appro-liament and of the country. priation of that public money could be called a private bill. The consequence of so treating it was, that they paid this enormous per centage on their own grants. Bills of this particular description ought not to be considered as private, but as public bills. He observed one extraordinary item in these accounts; namely, 107 mile stones, at 6. per stone. Now, in the country in which he lived, the commissioners of roads could purchase as personable a mile-stone as could be seen Mr. Wilmot Horton could not consent in any other part of the country for 1. to the delay, as he knew of no more conIt did appear to him, that when the pub-venient opportunity of discussing the sublic money was to be laid out, every thing was done in the most profuse and extravagant way. He could conceive no reason why the mile-stones on the Shrewsbury road should be so exceedingly expensive. Sir H. Parnell said, there was scarcely a stone in the neighbourhood fit for a mile-stone. The consequence was, that they had to be carried from a distance of forty or fifty miles. The money voted was laid out as economically as possible. Mr. Calcraft said, he merely meant to lay it down as a general principle, that public money was more profusely spent than private money. He was glad to find that the present instance formed an exception to the rule. With respect to the mile-stones, he knew not how they could cost so much, unless they travelled in mail-coaches.

ject. He adverted to the vote of 1823, for the purpose of conveying persons from the south of Ireland to the Cape of Good Hope, and observed, that the object was one of national importance that could not be so well effected in any other manner. He did not mean to bind himself to any particular plan of emigration; but he was prepared to show, that the principles on which it rested were sound, although improvements upon some points might be suggested and adopted. The error of past emigration had been, that people were sent out, and when they arrived at their destination, they had not the means of procuring subsistence; but the purpose now was, to place the settlers in such a situation as to enable them to support themselves by their own industry. Government had received the most flattering accounts of the success which had attended the present system so late as up to last February. Under these circumstances, he felt justified in proposing the present vote. The undertaking was in Mr. V. Fitzgerald said, the bill in ques-the nature of an experiment, which might, tion provided not only for the expenditure in its operation, effect a partial benefit to of public money for a public purpose, but Ireland. contained provisions which interfered with private rights. The House could not, therefore, have proceeded by means of a public act, without depriving individuals whose private rights were concerned, of

Sir John Newport was of opinion, that, whenever public money was voted for a public purpose, the act of parliament relating to it was a public, and not a private

act.

Mr. Grattan complained, that no ac count had been given of the result of the proceedings on this subject in the last year. As far as any thing was known, it seemed that the experiment, as far as re

1359] HOUSE OF COMMONS, Emigration from Ireland to the Canadas. [1560

lated to Canada, had not answered. In his view, it became the House to pause, not only until ministers brought forward such information as they possessed, but until it was seen whether, from any change in the situation of Ireland, such a course as that now recommended was necessary. Mr. V. Fitzgerald supported the proposition, believing that it would be equally beneficial to Ireland and Canada.

which had been tried, and had failed; and now it was asked to try the same experiment again, without knowing how far it was instrumental in the intended object. Formerly, the peasantry of Ireland looked genteel mode of transportation; but now on this system of emigration as only a they were anxious to emigrate to any place where they could find an honest mode of subsistence.

tinue the experiment of emigration; and Mr. M. Fitzgerald was disposed to conshould give his hearty consent to the proposed grant.

Mr. Abercromby thought, that the introduction of the present question was in itself a decisive proof of the bad system of government existing in Ireland. Instead of considering whether means could not be discovered to give sufficient em-colonists were sent out, whether they Mr. Hume wished to know, if these ployment to the labouring classes, so as were likewise to be provided with capital to enable them to live upon the fruits of to trade upon? Before making the grant, their industry, the House was now to be the House ought to have full evidence on engaged in a discussion upon the best the subject. He was credibly informed, means of transporting them to another that eighteen out of every twenty emicountry. However, if the people were to grants that went to Upper Canada, passed emigrate, he was opposed to the principle on to the United States. Therefore, until of government taking the whole expense accounts should be received from Canada, of the emigration upon itself; as he he should oppose the grant. At present, thought it would be amply sufficient, if he looked upon it as a most wanton piece those who intended to emigrate, simply of extravagance. received assistance from the government, instead of being sent out by it.

Mr. Wilmot Horton defended the grant, which he described to be only of an experimental kind. Its objects were to be pursued in the most economical manner; and he should therefore be happy to receive from any gentleman a suggestion of a practical nature, by which the expense could be diminished, though he believed that could hardly be done.

Mr. Bright approved of the principle of colonization, but complained of the expense at which it had been attempted to be carried into effect. He believed that some reductions could be made in that expense; although the hon. gentleman seemed to believe that impossible. He thought the House had better examine whether there was not a more advantageous mode of disposing of the surplus population of Ireland, than by sending them abroad. He should oppose the grant now; not absolutely, but conditionally, until a committee had been appointed to investigate the subject, and to report thereon to the House; and, among other things, to state whether, in their opinion, a grant of 30,000l. was not more than sufficient for the purpose.

Mr. J. Smith supported the grant. He given number of Irish peasants to the would vote the sum of 30,000l. to send a Canadas, on the simple ground, that he should thereby be rescuing that number of persons from hopeless misery. His sentiments might be found fault with; but he should at least have the consolation of feeling, that he had rendered a number of his fellow-subjects happy for life.

member for Midhurst, that this vote was Mr. Hutchinson agreed with the hon. calculated to relieve a small portion of the population of Ireland. If his majesty's government, however, conceived that this measure would afford any substantial relief to the miseries of that country, they grossly deceived themselves. It was not by promoting any scheme of emigration, but by uniting the people of Ireland, and finding employment for its population, that effectual relief could be afforded.

that if the proposition for a committee The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, were meant as a substitute for the present vote, he should certainly oppose it. He had no objection, however, to refer the general question of emigration from Ireland on a large scale, to a specific comMr. S. Rice expressed his thanks to the state of Ireland might be too much occumittee; as the committee on the general government for having taken up this sub-pied with other subjects to embrace that ject. Emigration was an experiment particular question.

Mr. Trant supported the motion. He should not have done so, however, but for the pledge of a committee to take the question of emigration into consideration. The resolution was agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, April 18.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] The Archbishop of Canterbury presented a petition against these claims from the archdeacon and clergy of the diocese of Canterbury, the language of which, his grace stated to be temperate and guarded. Many observations had been made on the petitions addressed by the clergy to the House; but, as an assertion had gone forth, that the clergy had changed their opinions respecting the danger of granting emancipation to the Catholics, he thought that they were fully justified in coming forward with petitions, as they had done. The Bishop of Norwich, in presenting two petitions against these claims, said, that he continued to dissent from the opinions which they expressed, but that their language was proper and temperate. Lord Calthorpe said, he was sorry, for the sake of the clergy, to see all these petitions, and to see such a spirit of hostility manifested to the Catholics. He was not, however, disposed to make any objections to receiving the petitions. He thought that both Houses of parliament should lend a willing ear to petitions from every class of persons; more particularly their lordships, who, not being dependent on the people for their parliamentary existence, should take care to show that they were not averse to listen to the wishes of the community, to whose opinion even their lordships must be ultimately amenable. The petitions which were presented to their lordships, he would contend, from what he recollected of former occasions, when any great question agitated the public mind, and when petitions poured in from all the great portions of the community, did not speak the general sense of the public. They were, he thought, petitions got up by the influence of the clergy. There had been, since the notice of the measure was given in the other House, an excellent opportunity for petitioning. The assizes had been held; but had their lordships received one petition from a grand jury? Was there a single petition from any one county meeting? Was there a petition VOL. XII.

from any of those great manufacturing or commercial towns, the inhabitants of which were rapidly increasing in wealth, and growing still faster in knowledge and liberality? If there had been one it was an exception; and certainly there were no petitions from those great, wealthy, and intelligent bodies of men to whom the legislature were accustomed to listen. The petitions presented to their lordships did not represent the opinion and feelings of the people; and he was sorry to see the clergy thus isolated from the great body of enlightened people. If the measure introduced into the other House should be rejected by their lordships, he knew it would be rejected by the majority in a conscientious discharge of their duty; but he must still assert, that if so lamentable a decision should be come to, it would be in opposition to public opinion, and in defiance of public feeling. He would say this, from seeing no petition from any of those great, opulent, and enlightened bodies to whose representations the legislature were accustomed to defer. If the bill should be lostand he thought it should not be called a bill for granting concessions to the Catho lics, but for enabling the Protestant church to seat itself in the hearts and feelings of the people of Ireland-he should regret it, as tending to weaken that church, and as perpetuating the spirit of hostility with which the church was now regarded, and which prevented it from being received with that cordiality, particularly in Ireland, which it deserved from its own merits.

The Bishop of Chester presented several petitions to the same effect. He would take that opportunity of reminding the noble lord, that he had presented a petition a few nights before, which was signed by upwards of 8,000 persons.

Lord Holland remarked, that most of these petitions were got up by the clergy stimulating the people.

The Bishop of Chester said, that the clergy had abstained from calling any public meetings, and from stimulating the people. He had been asked, whether or not the clergy should petition? And he had replied, "petition by all means, but take no steps to excite the people." He knew that this advice had been acted on in his diocese; for a delegation of Protestant dissenters had applied to the clergy to call a county meeting, and they had refused.

4 S

Lord King would just trouble their lordships by referring to one petition; or rather to one line of one petition. His lordship then read an extract from a petition stating, "that the Jews had been subjected to severe punishments for seventy years for associating with idolators, and holding this up as a warning to this nation against mingling with or encouraging Catholic idolatry." The petition, containing this remarkable sentiment, was from the archdeacon and clergy of Leicester.

Ordered to lie on the table.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Monday, April 18.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] Numerous petitions were presented both for and against the Roman Catholic Claims.

Colonel Archdall presented a petition from the Protestants of the county of Fermanagh, against any further concessions to the Catholics. The gallant officer denied that the feeling of the Protestants of Ireland was changed on the question. They were now, as on all former occasions, adverse to the policy of what was called Catholic emancipation.

Mr. Denis Browne said, he had the honour to reside in a very large county (Mayo), where a most respectable Protestant proprietary resided; and he could assure the House, that, at a recent public meeting which he attended, it was expressly decided, that there would not be either peace or prosperity, until Catholic emancipation was carried into effect by legislative enactment.

Mr. Secretary Peel said, he held in his hand a number of similar petitions; some from the clergy, some from persons not connected with the clergy, and others from dissenting congregations, both here and in Scotland. Though called on to present these petitions, he had no know ledge of the parties. He had acted on the principle he before professed, of not attempting to influence, in any way, the sentiments of any class of petitioners on this subject. The petitions were entirely unsuggested by him, and were the voluntary expressions of the opinions of those who signed them. He, in no in stance, had held any communication with the parties until the petitions had been agreed to. He received letters requesting that he would present them to the House; and his answer was, that if they were

couched in respectful language he could have no objection to do so.

Sir T. Lethbridge, in presenting several petitions of a similar nature, said he did not know the parties from whom they came. He had received letters requesting that he would offer them to the House, and he thought it his duty to do so. The reasons and arguments which they contained appeared to him unanswerable. He wished to take that opportunity of retracting the charge of apathy which he had brought against the country upon a former occasion. That sort of feeling had been now raised among the people against any further concession of the Catholics, which he trusted would excite a similar spirit in the House. It was his firm opinion, that it was the feeling of the great majority of the population of this country, that no further concessions should be made to the Catholics.

Lord Nugent rose, to present three petitions in favour of the Catholic Claims. He had intended to present to the House that evening, the general petition of the Roman Catholics of England and Scotland, in favour of the bill for conceding to the Catholics those rights, which they so justly claimed ; but he thought it would be more respectful to the petitioners and to the House, if he postponed the presentation of the petition until to-morrow, when the entire subject would be brought under their consideration.

Mr. Brougham said, he held in his hand a petition from certain inhabitants of great and little Bolton, in the county of Lancaster, in favour of the bill now before the House, for relieving the Roman Catholics from the disqualifications under which they at present laboured. The petitioners were of opinion, and in that opinion he entirely coincided, that it was equally impolitic and unjust to inflict civil disabilities on any body of men, because they adhered to a particular mode of religious belief. In presenting this petition to the House, he would take the liberty of stating the opinion which he had before expressed in that place, an opinion which he had always held, and always would hold; namely, that all tests, and all civil qualifications, respecting disabilities to hold particular situations on account of religious belief, ought to be removed. He spoke not of the Roman Catholics merely. He was of opinion, that the ̃ pure doctrine of religious toleration ought to be extended to all sects, as well as to

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