that some distinct and intelligent princi-gularly. ple would be laid down, to let the House understand the extent to which it was expected they would go.

Lord George Cavendish supported the bill, and thought that, in these enlightened times, there could be no objection to afford the relief sought for.

The bill was read a second time.

benefits of the British constitution should | perity of England and Ireland thought it be thrown open to all classes of his ma- indispensable. But, what was the state of jesty's subjects without difficulty or hesi- things now? He had never, until that tation, he felt bound to respect the con- moment, been told that, in order to proscientious scruples of those who required cure Catholic emancipation, we must some securities, before they could satisfy have a reform of the representation of their own minds as to the expediency of Ireland, and must pay the Catholic clergy granting those benefits to his majesty's of Ireland out of the funds of England. Catholic subjects; and he knew that To the proposition of paying the Catholic there was a large proportion of the Pro- clergy he should have no objection; if testant population of this country who means could be devised for doing so out of considered some regulations respecting the funds of Ireland, and if the gentlemen the elective franchise in Ireland, as an of Ireland chose so to apply those means. indispensable accompaniment to Catholic But, after the number of years in which concession. Those also who best knew he had been employed in that House, in what was the state of society and property endeavouring to keep down the taxation in Ireland, were of opinion, that few mea- of those who had sent him there, and to sures could be more conducive to the diminish their burthens, he did not underwelfare, prosperity, and happiness of that stand being called upon to pay 240,000l. country. He could not sit down without for Catholic emancipation as a kind of stating, that, in deciding on this step, he boon; when he had been all along told was not influenced by any of the parties that it was so desirable a measure. With who co-operated in the bill which had what face could he, who had for so many been introduced into the House. He years laboured to reduce taxation, acwas quite ignorant of what their opinion quiesce in such a proposition? Although would be on the subject. He had had no he was a strict Protestant, and a Church communication whatever with any of them. of England Protestant, he had dissented Perhaps he owed an apology to his hon. from the vote for giving money to build friend, the member for Westminster, for new churches; not because he did not not having, in the first instance, submitted wish to see new churches built, but behis intention to him. He trusted, how-cause he thought the expense ought to ever, that his hon. friend would believe that his not having done so was not attributable to any want of courtesy, and that he was influenced by no other view, than the supposition that it might be satisfactory to his hon. friend to be able to say, that he had had no communication with him on the subject.

be defrayed by the congregations, and not by the public at large. After such a proceeding, with what face could he consent to tax his constituents for the maintenance of the Irish Roman Catholic clergy? He never would do so; and, were he the only individual in the House hostile to such a proposition, he would Mr. M. A. Taylor said, that as the persevere in his opposition to it. With hon. member for Staffordshire had not respect to the other proposal, for intergone into any details, with respect to his fering with the representation of Ireland, proposed measure, it was not his intention the nature of it was directly adverse to to enter into any discussion on the sub- the principles which he had all his life ject. But, he begged leave to enter his been advocating. Was he not one of the protest, in the first instance, against the Friends of the People in 1793? He had proposition, in order that he might not always been for extending, not for limithereafter be charged with inconsistency ing, the right of voting. If a fortyrespecting it. He asked pardon of the shilling qualification were considered as House for speaking for a moment of him- too small for an elector in Ireland, what self; but, having had the honour of a seat was to prevent its being considered as too in parliament for nearly forty-three years, small for an elector in England? But, he had pledged himself to the maintenance how would such a proposition be relished of certain principles from which he should in this country? He thought himself as certainly not now depart. Many years good a voter in the county of Durham ago, and at different times, he had ex- as any man; and yet his qualification did pressed himself in favour of Catholic not exceed 31. Yet, such a proposition emancipation. For the bill in progress as that of the hon. member for Staffordthrough the House he had voted; because shire would destroy all such qualifications. the best friends of the peace and pros-Look at many of our tenures. Look at VOL. XII.

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the practice of Knaresborough, where the burgesses voted with a wet seal. Was it not, indeed, the practice of all burgage tenures to vote with a wet seal? All these might as well be disturbed as the elective franchise of the forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland. He was extremely sorry at the introduction of this proposition. Had the bill gone on as it was going on, it must have triumphed in that House; and, after two or three sessions, the other House would have found it impossible any longer to withstand the general opinion in its favour. But, he would now tell the hon. member for Staffordshire that, if he meant success to Catholic emancipation (and he did not doubt that he earnestly wished it), he had taken the very worst course that could possibly be adopted for obtaining that object.

Sir R. Shaw was persuaded, that nothing was so likely to conciliate the minds of the Protestants of Ireland as the proposed alteration in the elective franchise, and provision for the Roman Catholic clergy. He had received a number of letters from Ireland, all concurring in the opinion that, if those two measures were agreed to, the opposition to the Catholic Emancipation bill would be nearly done away with.

Sir J. Newport said, he was anxious, on all occasions, to state fully and frankly his opinions upon the various questions that were brought before that House; and he was, of course, especially solicitous to do so with reference to that vitally important measure, notice of a proposition respecting which had just been given by the hon. member for Staffordshire. He felt peculiar anxiety on this subject, because he was convinced, in his own mind, that the hon. gentleman's proposition would tend materially to facilitate the progress of the measure of which he (sir J. N.) had been, for twenty-three years in that House, and forty years out of it, the unceasing advocate. If he had failed to convince the House, that he was warmly attached to the real freedom of election, and exceedingly desirous to maintain the substantial rights of the people, down to the lowest ranks in society, he had for many years been labouring in vain. But, when the hon. member for Durham said, that he believed the Catholic question would triumph in two or three sessions, without these injurious appendages, as he termed them, he who

knew something more of Ireland than the hon. gentleman, begged leave to tell him, that the consequences of deferring the emancipation were not to be calculated, When the hon. gentleman talked of not burthening his constituents with 240,000l. a year for the purpose of providing for the Catholic clergy, he begged to ask him, if he should think it a better plan to pay three millions a year for soldiers? It was utterly impossible to believe, that so great a portion of the community could remain in a state of serious discontent, aggravated by various considerations, without giving occasion for large and continued expense. It was highly momentous that the question should undergo a speedy and a favourable decision. The present was, perhaps, the most fortunate period for such a decision, that could possibly occur. Parliament had a mass of evidence before them, to show the evils of the present system. They had before them the opinions of the Protestants of Ireland, as well as of the leaders of the Catholics. Let them, then, seize the golden opportunity. There was at present a concurrence of fortunate events, the continuance of which could not possibly be anticipated; and unless advantage was taken of them, to adopt means of permanently tranquillising Ireland, incaiculable evils must be expected. With respect to the contemplated change in the elective franchise, he was bold to say, that whenever that subject came regularly under discussion, he should be able to prove, to the satisfaction of the most incredulous, that the elective franchise in the hands of many of those who now hold it in Ireland, so far from being a boon, was pregnant with the most injurious consequences. They were not free agents. They might be called freeholders, or free electors; but the term "free" was misapplied. They were driven, or dragged, to the hustings to do, not what they wished themselves, but what their superiors wished.

Mr. Stuart Wortley expressed his regret at what had fallen from the hon. member for Durham. He was in hopes that the proposition of his hon. friend the member for Staffordshire, would have met with unanimous support. He entreated his hon. friend, however, not to be deterred by any threatened opposition; for he believed in his conscience, that the House would pass the Emancipation bill, together with his hon. friend's pro

position; and he trusted that a great majority would be found on that side of the question.

lic clergy, in the view of economy, the money required for that object would be so utterly trifling, that it would not ba lance the weight of a straw, in the conclusion of any rational mind, one way or the other. But, at all events, he was not im

Sir R. Wilson observed, that when he voted for Catholic emancipation it was with a view of increasing, not of decreasing, the rights and privileges of the Ca-plicated in the fate of these propositions. tholics of Ireland. If any abuses existed in the representation of Ireland, let a committee be appointed to investigate them. To that extent he was quite ready to go. He was ready to correct all abuses- to make fallacious voters, if such there were, substantial. But further he could not go. He must continue to maintain the act of the 33rd of Geo. 3rd, by which the Catholics were permitted to enjoy the elective franchise. He would oppose all measures which contemplated any alteration, where the votes were bonâfide registered.

Catholic emancipation was the sole measure for which he was pledged; nor would he consent to mingle less significant details with that great question. At the same time, he was willing to make great sacrifices to obtain the emancipation of the Catholics, and should like to know upon what terms the government were ready to give it their support. He would take the opportunity of doing justice to a gen tleman who had been much talked of, and in some degree misrepresented, both in that House and elsewhere. A right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had taken upon himself to deny, that any member of the Catholic delegation had been consulted, upon drawing up the bill which was now before the House. The facts were these, Mr. O'Connell had been examined before the committee, together with other gentlemen of the delegation, as persons the best qualified to furnish the committee with exact information upon the state of the public mind in Ireland, and on the safest mode to be resorted to for quieting the uneasy state of that country. Mr. O'Connell had been requested to draw up a rough sketch of a bill which his pro fessional habits enabled him to do in a correct manner. Nor would it ever have entered his head that a bill so drawn, if deliberately revised and approved of by the committee, would, on that account only, be objected to. It did, however, form a ground of objection; and the draught was thrown aside. A bill was then prepared in exact conformity with one of the same nature, which had already passed the House; and this was neither framed by Mr. O'Connell, nor was he at all consulted about it. That gentleman's Sir Francis Burdett said, that he felt it statement to the people of Ireland was incumbent on him to trouble the House perfectly consistent with the facts. He with one or two observations. He would trusted, that the support which was due not go further than was strictly necessary. to the principle of this bill would be given He fully concurred in all that had been to it, notwithstanding the qualifications said by the noble lord behind him. If with which it was proposed to accompany the necessity of the case required it, heit; and that those qualifications would would be ready to support this proposed not be mixed with it in its immediate promeasure respecting the elective franchise, gress. It would be time enough for those in order to carry that question of para-who were friendly to the bill, to oppose mount importance, Catholic emancipation. the qualifications, when the question As to the proposed stipend to the Catho- should be brought before the House..

Lord John Russell observed, that it was a point agreed on, that all fraudulent votes given for the election of county members in Ireland should be taken away. But was it not reasonable to inquire into the votes given in cities and corporations? If, however, the proposed measure would tend to carry the question of Catholic emancipation, his mouth was stopped; for, in order to preserve the peace and tranquillity of Ireland, he felt that it was necessary to pass that measure without delay. With respect to the other proposal, of tacking to this bill for emancipation, a clause for granting 240,000l. as a provision for the Catholic clergy, in the same way in which the government of France paid the Protestant clergy of that country, as he heard members for Ireland who knew the country, and who had well considered the measure, give their assent to it, he could not withhold his own. The sum was so small that he could not, well understand the construction of the mind of the man who would oppose so great a measure as Catholic emancipation on the grounds of such a trifle.