laws had been formed, abrogating the old ones respecting mining contracts. In the latter case, the law was settled and definite; in the former, liable to change and indefinite. Under these circumstances as he did not think the scheme a prudent one, he had desired that his name as a director, should be withdrawn, lest it should lead some persons into the scheme, who would not otherwise have joined in it. He trusted that his hon. friend, the member for Westminster, would withdraw his opposition to the bill in its present stage, in order to give those who were interested in it the means of contradicting his statements if they could, All the other companies had been allowed to proceed upon the same machinery which this bill asked for. He could say from a personal knowledge of the characters of the directors of this company, that they would be the last men in the world to lend their support to that which they believed to be a delusion. In conclusion he condemned the spirit of gambling that was now abroad. There might be great prizes in the lottery which was thus opened; but none sufficiently great to compensate for the credulity of those who entered into such speculations.

this bill which they had investigated, be- | cause they had sanctioned other bills which they had not investigated, was so inconsistent with common sense, as to need no other refutation than the mere repetition of it. His hon. friend's speech, in support of the bill, would do more than the speeches of many gentlemen against it, to throw cold water upon the speculations of this company. He considered all bills of this nature in the light of a bonus to the shareholders. They were often brought into parliament for no other reason than to increase the price of shares in the market. If this company were reallysincere in their intention of prosecuting the design they had announced, they could do it as well without a bill as with it. He believed that the parties most interested in it only wanted to sell their shares, and either cared not a straw about the mines, or were willing to leave it to others to work them. He considered this speculation to be rather a specimen of parliamentary mining than of fair commerce. He thought the hon. member for Westminster had made out a case which ought to convince parliament, that it would be doing wrong in sanctioning this measure. He recommended that trade should be left to its natural and legitimate course, instead of being bolstered up by so many artificial projects as were at present in existenec. He was sorry to see from a list that had been published, that more than twentyeight members of parliament were either chairmen or directors of more than three Associations each. He thought that such Associations would not add either to the wealth, or to the interest, or to the honour of the nation; and, of the many schemes which they had put forth, he thought the Pasco Peruvian mining scheme was by far the most delusive.

Mr. Attwood said, that the view which had been taken of the subject before the House, by his hon. friend, the member for Newton (Mr. H. Gurney), was perfectly just; and that the greater part of what had been advanced on either side, by other gentlemen, was wholly irrelevant to the real question. With the quality of these mines, the validity of the leases of the company, or the value of their shares, the House had nothing whatever to do. Here were a body of men, who had formed themselves into a partnership, and prepared to embark their money, in the working of certain mines in some part of Mr. Ellice said, that, in the first pro- Peru. They found, that as the law stood, spectus which this company issued, the a partnership, such as theirs, consisting of projectors had placed their names amongst a great number of persons, was placed in those of the directors, without making this absurd position, that they could neiany previous communication to him of ther sue successfully at law, for any debts their design. He had, however, desired it due to them, nor could their creditors sue to be withdrawn ; as he did not consider them. They applied, therefore, for an the speculation a prudent one. His rea- act to remedy this inconvenience. An son for so thinking was, that it was pro- act, as it was called, to sue and be sued. posed to work mines in a country, which This was the simple character of the act had no settled government, and where it applied for; and the time of the House was uncertain whether a new law, or the old had been occupied for hours, with trumSpanish law, would prevail with regard to pery investigations respecting the pros mining contracts. In Mexico and Colom-pects of gain or loss of those parties; bia the case was somewhat different. New whether the title to their leases was pergovernments had been framed, and new fectly valid, and would hold good, the

quality of their ores, their coals; whether | ceeded, and had long proceeded, without,

some of their partners or shareholders had not given too much or too little for their shares, as between one another, and other such considerations, perfectly derogatory to the importance of the proceedings of parliament, and which were for the judgment of the parties themselves who adventured their money, and for them only. Suppose the House having taken on itself to discuss these subjects, should form an opinion upon them, different from that of the parties themselves, and should come to the absurd resolution of rejecting their bill. What then would ensue? The parties would proceed in working their mines, just as effectually without the bill as with it. They would act on their own judgment and information. The House had no power to obstruct nor forward, the objects of the parties, as to risking their money or working their mines. All they could do was, to decide whether they should or should not be legally liable to their creditors. The hon. member for Wareham, indeed said, that the effect of passing the act would be, to induce persons to buy shares in the company at a higher price than otherwise, and that therefore it was to be rejected. But the act applied for, would neither make their shares in reality more or less valuable; and if people were ignorant enough to believe the contrary, it was perfectly idle for the House to guide its proceedings by their want of information in the conduct of their own affairs; and which ignorance he did not believe existed. That state of the law, indeed, which had caused those parties to apply for an act of parliament, was a subject of grave consideration. It was a very important circumstance which was thus brought before them; that whenever any considerable number of persons were engaged in a mercantile partnership, or, in other words, in a jointstock company, the state of the law was (owing to a technical defect, which was found to apply in the course of legal proceedings), that such partnership was incapable of recovering any debt by law; and that no creditor of such partnership was able to recover by law, any debt due from them. The number of extended partnerships, or of joint-stock companies in existence, were, as was well known, exceedingly numerous; many of them had procured acts of parliament to remove this evil; but many others again, pro

such acts. A great part of the alarm which had been expressed recently, in different places with respect to companies of this kind, had arisen from this state of the law. Lawyers, viewing these undertakings as connected with the defective state of the law which applied to them, had endeavoured to excite the apprehensions of those who were embarked in such concerns; but those individuals would have better consulted their own character, and have rendered better service to the country, if, instead of attempting to influence the conduct of mercantile operations, of which they knew nothing, they had applied themselves to remedy the absurd and disgraceful state of the law itself, which fell within their own province. The interests to which this disgraceful state of the law applied, were of enormous magnitude. Associations very numerous, of long standing, of great capital and im portance, were situated as he had described. The greater number of those useful institutions, the insurance offices, were so circumstanced. Millions of capital, hundreds, perhaps, of millions, were employed in this country by those associations, honourably, profitably, usefully to the country; and were totally without the pale or protection of the law. The parties were a law for themselves, their character was their law, they arranged their proceedings so as to guard against, and provide for, as well as they could, the vices of the law. It was fit that such a correction of this legal absurdity should take place as would give, not to this company only, but to all others similarly circumstanced, the same power which the present bill proposed. As he had been led to say thus much on the more general question, he would offer some remarks on the character of that clamour which had lately been raised against joint-stock companies, and which had formed a material feature of the present debate. It was proper to call to their recollection, what were the advantages which the country derived from associations of this nature; and that they formed a means for the beneficial employment of a considerable portion of the national capital. Listening to what had been said on the subject, it might be believed that those associations presented one great and enormous abuse, which it was necessary to repress and destroy in whatever form offered. But gentlemen

would do well to consider, that it was to such associations that the country was indebted for every public work which it possessed, having for its object the promotion of wealth. What had been the origin of all canals, docks, aqueducts, bridges, and similar commercial works? They were beyond the power of indivi-vernment had, for many years, been dual enterprise; the government was incompetent to such undertakings, but they yet existed in every direction. They were the work of those joint-stock companies, which had been the subject of so much indiscriminate and prejudiced abuse. There existed, in fact, in the country, no power or means whatever of executing such works, except by means of those combinations called joint-stock companies. The government was not only inefficient for such purposes, but might be said to be the most inefficient of any government which then existed, or which almost ever had existed. In other countries were to be seen great public works executed by the government. In France great canals; in Holland; in China, even, canals of a magnitude unknown elsewhere, all the work of the government, but in this country nothing of the kind was to be seen. An hon. gentleman said, the Caledonian canal. The Caledonian canal was undertaken for some purpose of employing or curbing the highlanders, and there was, indeed, a road through Wales, for a speedy communication with Dublin. But those had political objects in view. There was no want of such works on the part of the government, as fortifications, military and naval, and harbours for ships of war; but, of public works of a commercial character, having for their object the promotion of wealth, there existed nothing of the kind throughout the country, which had been the work of the government. This was no reproach to the government. It was to its praise, that it had no character of needless interference with the affairs of the country, but left the people to the free employment of their capital, and the development of their resources. But the state of things he had described was one not to be lost sight of, when the character of these associations was considered. They found, indeed, a very extraordinary power, peculiar in a great degree to this country, and existing, except partially, nowhere else. Their main origin was, he was convinced, in that integrity in the commercial character of the country,

which guaranteed such undertakings from that fraud and abuse in their conduct, which had been ridiculously imputed to them. Other countries had seen the advantages of such combinations, and had endeavoured to establish them by efforts and encouragement. In France the gooccupied in endeavouring to establish these companies to construct canals, by bounties and encouragements of every kind; but, he believed, without effect; whilst here, with no assistance on the part of the government, but the subjects of igno rant reproach, had these joint-stock com panies intersected and united all the main parts of the kingdom, with canal communication. But then it was said, there was much ignorance in the conduct of many of these associations, much imprudence, many operations undertaken not suited to be executed advantageously by such associations. There could be no doubt of it: It was not a pure and unmixed good. In every direction of any considerable branch of capital, there must be, of necessity, much of extravagance and its natural result. But of this he was convinced, that in the most extravagant and absurd of these undertakings, there could be found no ignorance so complete and perverse as had been exhibited in that and the other House of parliament in the discussions respecting them. Alarm had been felt, respecting the number and extent of those associations, but it was to be considered whether the present circumstances of the country were not such, as necessarily to direct a more than ordinary proportion of capital to such objects. If the present rate of interest, and value of money should continue, his conviction was, that the present extent to which joint-stock companies were carried was not their limit, but that they would be much further and beneficially extended. During the war, for a period of twenty years, the government came into the market for loans, to the annual amount of, perhaps, twenty millions. But what was the source from whence those loans were supplied? From the surplus revenue of individuals, desirous of converting it into capital, which would produce an annual return. At the close of the war, the government ceased to take off those accumulations of capital. But capital did not cease to accumulate on that account; and its natural and most beneficial direction, was to public works of a commercial character. Would gen

This was the motive which led to jointstock companies. A dock, or a canal, which should now return five per cent, would be a profitable undertaking. One that returned four, three, or even two per cent would not be considered ruinous. The abuse, therefore, which had been so freely lavished on those undertakings was most preposterous. He had been led, however, at too great length, into that subject; with respect to the simple question before the House, of the particular company to which it referred, he knew nothing, neither of their prospects of advantage, or the value of their concern or their shares; nor did he desire to know. All this he left to the judgment of the parties themselves, whose concern it was; but that they ought to be made liable to be sued at law for their just debts, of that he was quite satisfied; and also, that they ought to be enabled to recover by law any debts justly due to them; and as the present bill gave them those powers and no other, he should willingly vote for it.

Mr. Baring begged to be understood as applying his observations not to this company in particular, butto joint-stockcompanies generally.

tlemen, who were kind enough to point | a great loss of capital if war broke out. out the danger which individuals incurred, in investing their money in shares of docks, canals, rail-roads, and other schemes now on foot, inform those individuals in what other manner they would recommend them to invest their money, so that it should be free from risk, and produce a satisfactory income? In 3 per cents at 95, or in loans to foreign governments? It was to avoid both these, that persons took shares in public companies. He had been somewhat surprised to hear his hon. friend, the member for Taunton, join in those terms of unfounded alarm. He had referred particularly, to those associations whose object was, to work mines in South America, and who calculated on introducing there, many improvements in the system of mining. The hon. member said, they would be deceived; that those expectations were delusive; that it was a vain opinion, which the miners of this country entertained, of their superiority to the miners of South America. He instanced the mines worked by the Austrian government which, ignorant and sluggish as that government was, were yet conducted with as much system and science as any mines here. Now, he would like to ask the hon. gentleman, Mr. Robertson was of opinion, that the whether he considered that the finances House ought to make a stand on the preof the Austrian government were con- sent occasion, and protect the public from ducted as ably as its mines? In his hum- the ruin with which they were threatened. ble opinion, when his hon. friend put him- All the speculations that were at present self at the head, of what was, in fact, afloat, and more especially the mining neither more nor less than a joint-stock speculations, afforded little chance of becompany, formed with the object of lend-ing successful. As to the introduction ing two millions to that beggarly, dis- of the steam engine to work these South honest, and bankrupt government, and American mines, it was the greatest posfor the express purpose of enabling it to sible delusion. There was no fuel. In pay a composition of somewhere about Mexico there was no coal; and near the half a crown in the pound on a just debt, mines under discussion there was no wood. he lent himself to an operation as full of They had been worked for many ages by delusion, and as likely to end in ruin, as able German miners, who were as likely any one of those projects the most absurd to render them profitable as any persons. and extravagant, whether for working Nor was it probable that the Mexicans mines, or for selling chalk, or milk, which would sell them to their present proprietors, he had described, and of which no doubt disadvantageously to themselves. There many, sufficiently absurd were in existence. could be little doubt that whatever capital He did not defend the prudence of all was embarked in these mining speculations the undertakings of these bodies, any would be wasted. He strongly impressed more than he would of any great class of upon the House the necessity of endeaindividuals. But it was not to be for-youring to put a stop to these speculagotten, that the same return, which some tions, by withdrawing the countenance of years back would have been looked on as parliament from them. He regretted, unfortunate, would be advantageous under that when a subject of so much impor present circumstances. The prospect held tance was before the House, not a single out to the holders of stock was, a reduc-minister was to be seen on the Treasury tion of interest if peace should continue; bench. The country was indebted to the

lord chancellor for what he had stated on the subject. That learned lord seemed to be the only member of the government who was alive to the ruin that awaited the unthinking persons who embarked in these speculations.

Mr. Alderman Bridges, in reply to the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, declared, that in the neighbourhood of Real del Monte, there were coals enough to enable the steam-engines to work for many years. The hon. alderman vindicated the characters of the directors of this company, who were men of the highest honour, and possessed of great prudence and foresight. High as the shares at present stood in the market, many of the holders would not take double the current price for those which they had in their possession.

Mr. Hobhouse said, he had applied his observations, not so much to the individual speculators, as to the speculation itself. He should not, however, press his amendment to a division.

The bill was then read a second time.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. Secretary Peel thought the reason just given by the hon. member, in favour of the motion, disclosed its real object, and was the strongest that could be urged in opposition to it. If it was the intention of the hon. mover to obtain a vote of that House on the present motion, impliedly declaring its opinion, that clergymen ought not to hold borough offices, he must say, that such a mode of obtaining the opinion was the least fair that could be adopted. If the hon. member wished to disqualify clergymen from helding such offices, let him do so by bill, in which they could have the assistance of the other branch of the legislature; and not in the form of the present motion, in which the disqualification would be by implication alone.

Mr. F. Palmer observed, that it would be impossible to bring in such a bill as the right hon. gentleman recommended, unless the return for which his hon. friend moved were laid before the House. He therefore supported the motion.

Mr. Wynn defended the character of the clergy generally, and more especially of the clergy of Wales, and maintained that they had acquitted themselves, in many instances, with the greatest advantage to the public in the discharge of the magisterial functions. He recom

Thursday, March 17. CLERGYMEN HOLDING OFFICES IN CORPORATIONS.] Mr. Hume, after a few observations on the general incon-mended the hon. member to withdraw his venience of allowing clergymen to hold motion, and to bring the subject before civil offices in corporations, and to mix the House on the general principles of themselves up in secular affairs, moved, the eligibility or ineligibility of the clergy "That an humble Address be presented to civil offices. to his Majesty, that he will be pleased to direct a return to be laid before this House of the number of persons in holy orders in the Church of England, who hold offices in corporations of boroughs, or cities; stating the names of such persons, the offices they hold, the name of the borough or city, and whether they have any benefice, and how many, and whether they are resident or non-resident on such benefice."

Dr. Phillimore opposed the motion, which he considered at the best unnecessary.

Mr. John Smith said, that the respect which he felt for the clergy would not prevent him from supporting this motion. If it should appear from these returns, that the clergy were neglecting the duties belonging to their character, and engaging in others that were alien to it, the House might consider how far it ought to interfere to prevent such neglect in future. VOL. XII.

Sir J. Newport thought it would be expedient that the subject should be submitted to the House, with reference to the general question of the eligibility of the clergy to civil offices. Although it might be advantageous in the country, that clergymen should hold magisterial situations, it appeared to him that in cities it was quite the reverse.

The House divided: For the motion 4; Against it 22.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Friday, March 18.

JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES.]' Mr. T. Wilson presented a petition from certain Cow-keepers and Milk Venders, complain. ing of the Milk Company.

Mr. Grenfell felt surprised, when the law on Joint-Stock Companies was in such uncertainty, that the lord chancellor had not brought forward his intended measure. 3 Z